Place Scrutiny Committee - Tuesday 27 January 2026, 7:00pm - Epping Forest District Council webcasts

Place Scrutiny Committee
Tuesday, 27th January 2026 at 7:00pm 

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  1. Cllr Joseph Parsons
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  1. Laura Kirman
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  1. Public Speaker
  2. TFL - Public Speaker
  3. Transport for London
  4. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  5. Cllr Stephen Murray
  6. Transport for London
  7. Cllr Stephen Murray
  8. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  9. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  10. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  11. Transport for London
  12. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  13. Transport for London
  14. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  15. Transport for London
  16. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  17. Transport for London
  18. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  19. Cllr Alan Lion
  20. Transport for London
  21. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  22. Cllr Alan Lion
  23. Transport for London
  24. Cllr Alan Lion
  25. Transport for London
  26. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  27. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  28. Transport for London
  29. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  30. Transport for London
  31. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  32. Transport for London
  33. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  34. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  35. Transport for London
  36. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  37. Transport for London
  38. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  39. Transport for London
  40. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  41. Transport for London
  42. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  43. Transport for London
  44. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  45. Transport for London
  46. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  47. Transport for London
  48. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  49. Transport for London
  50. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  51. Transport for London
  52. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  53. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  54. Transport for London
  55. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  56. Transport for London
  57. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  58. Cllr Stephen Murray
  59. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  60. Transport for London
  61. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  62. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  63. Transport for London
  64. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  65. Transport for London
  66. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  67. Transport for London
  68. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  69. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  70. Transport for London
  71. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  72. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  73. Transport for London
  74. Cllr Barbara Cohen
  75. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  76. Cllr Stephen Murray
  77. Transport for London
  78. Cllr Stephen Murray
  79. Transport for London
  80. Cllr Stephen Murray
  81. Transport for London
  82. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  83. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  84. Transport for London
  85. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  86. Transport for London
  87. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  88. Transport for London
  89. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  90. Transport for London
  91. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  92. Transport for London
  93. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  94. Transport for London
  95. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  96. Transport for London
  97. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  98. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  99. Transport for London
  100. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  101. Transport for London
  102. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  103. Transport for London
  104. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  105. Cllr Barbara Cohen
  106. Transport for London
  107. Cllr Chidi Nweke
  108. Transport for London
  109. Cllr Chidi Nweke
  110. Transport for London
  111. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  112. Cllr Chidi Nweke
  113. Transport for London
  114. Cllr Chidi Nweke
  115. Transport for London
  116. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  117. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  118. Transport for London
  119. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  120. Transport for London
  121. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  122. Transport for London
  123. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  124. Transport for London
  125. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  126. Transport for London
  127. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  128. Transport for London
  129. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  130. Transport for London
  131. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  132. Transport for London
  133. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  134. Cllr Arash Ardakani
  135. Cllr Tom Bromwich
  136. Transport for London
  137. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  138. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  139. Transport for London
  140. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  141. Transport for London
  142. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  143. Cllr Stephen Murray
  144. Cllr Will Kauffman
  145. Transport for London
  146. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  147. Transport for London
  148. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  149. Transport for London
  150. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  151. Transport for London
  152. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  153. Transport for London
  154. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  155. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  156. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  157. Transport for London
  158. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  159. Cllr Tom Bromwich
  160. Cllr Rose Brookes
  161. Transport for London
  162. Cllr Rose Brookes
  163. Transport for London
  164. Cllr Rose Brookes
  165. Transport for London
  166. Cllr Rose Brookes
  167. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  168. Cllr Stephen Murray
  169. Transport for London
  170. Cllr Stephen Murray
  171. Cllr Janet Whitehouse
  172. Transport for London
  173. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  174. Cllr Tom Bromwich
  175. Transport for London
  176. Cllr Tom Bromwich
  177. Transport for London
  178. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  179. Transport for London
  180. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  181. Transport for London
  182. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  183. Cllr Stephen Murray
  184. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  185. Cllr Chris Whitbread
  186. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  187. Cllr Les Burrows
  188. Transport for London
  189. Cllr Les Burrows
  190. Transport for London
  191. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  192. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  193. Transport for London
  194. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  195. Transport for London
  196. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  197. Matt Winslow
  198. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  199. Cllr Alan Lion
  200. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  201. Cllr Lisa Morgan
  202. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  203. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  204. Transport for London
  205. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  206. Matt Winslow
  207. Cllr Darshan Sunger
  208. Transport for London
  209. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  210. Cllr Kaz Rizvi
  211. Cllr Sheree Rackham
  212. Transport for London
  213. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  214. Cllr Will Kauffman
  215. Transport for London
  216. Cllr Joseph Parsons
  217. Transport for London
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  2. Webcast Finished

1 WEBCASTING INTRODUCTION

Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:00:00
everyone present that this meeting will be recorded live and will be capable of repeated
viewing. Therefore, by entering the council chamber and using the seating area, you are
therefore consenting to being filmed and the possible use of images and sound recordings
for webcasting and or training purposes. So thanks everyone for coming. Welcome to tonight's
meeting of place scrutiny committee on the 2027th of January. I'm your chairman, Councillor
Joseph Parsons, and I'll just introduce you to the rest of my panel. So to my right is
my Vice Chairman, Councillor Darshan Soongar, and to my left we've got Matt Winslow, who's
the Service Director for Planning and Lead Officer for this evening, and we've got Nicholas
Ayers, who's Head of Legal and our Deputy Monitoring Officer. And then to my Vice Chairman's
right we've got Laura, who is the Democratic Services Officer. So I'd also like to welcome
Jasmit Jamal from TfL, who's the Partnership and Engagement Officer. Thanks a lot for coming.
If we go on to item number two, apologies of absence.

2 APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE

Received apologies from Councillor Allgood and Councillor Dadd.
Laura Kirman - 0:01:02
Any substitute members?

3 SUBSTITUTE MEMBERS

No substitute members, Councillor Rackham for Councillor Allgood.
Members have you got any declarations of interest?
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:01:11
None from anybody.

4 DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST

Notes of the previous meeting, are you all able to agree those?

5 NOTES OF PREVIOUS MEETING

Agreed.
Thank you.

6 WORK PROGRAMME

Okay, so we've got item number six, which is the work programme on page seven.
Have members got any comments?
They're happy to agree that.
Perfect.
Thank you.

7 TRANSPORT FOR LONDON - SCRUTINY OF EXTERNAL ORGANISATION

Okay, so onto item number eight, transport for London and scrutiny.
This is main item of the meeting on appendix one on page 10.
So firstly, thank you.
Thank you for coming today.
We do really appreciate it.
So in terms of how we're going to proceed with this, we've got nine themes from members
members will go to one member to do each theme, so they will ask all the questions and then
I will open it up to everybody else to ask their own questions on each theme as we go.
So if we start, I will introduce Jasmeet, if you wanted to come in, if you could give
us a brief update of what might have happened since our last meeting, or any update at all.
Thank you.
Public Speaker - 0:02:20
I'm Jasmit Jabal, I work in Transport for London's local communities and partnerships
team.
What that basically means is I look after the political relationships and stakeholder
relationships within my boroughs.
So I have Waltham Forest, Redbridge, Tower Hamlets, Newham and Essex.
TFL - Public Speaker - 0:02:42
So what I will try to do off the off is I'll try to be as transparent as I possibly can.
I might not always give you the answer you want but I'll try to give you the most honest answer as to what we can do and what we can't do.
Transport for London - 0:02:59
If there's anything I don't know then I'll endeavour to take it away and provide a written response afterwards.
In terms of basic updates, so I believe the last time I came I was telling you about the CLIP programme.
I was sent through an hour presentation that I believe most of you have watched, so I won't
bore you through the details, but the latest is we have four in service at the moment and
we'll have a fifth one coming in by the end of the financial year and we're endeavouring
to ramp that up as and when we can get these trains refurbished and out in service as soon
as possible.
The second point is regarding the timetabling.
The timetable is currently being reviewed.
we should have a new timetable sort of August summertime.
I was hoping to bring you the sort of new frequencies
of trains, but our team hasn't quite sort of got
that together and I didn't want to kind of create
expectations in case we sort of make any amendments
or changes to that.
So there are two key issues we've got regards to the sort
of central line in terms of frequency
and the new services coming in.
With regard to everything else, I'm happy to sort of just
take questions as and when, and I'll try and answer them
as best I can.
Perfect. Thanks very much. So, as I mentioned, we will go through the various scenes.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:04:10
So, the first one…
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:04:16
Chairman, it might just be useful to clarify from the outset, has the representative from
TfL had the opportunity to see the questions because they were sent two weeks ago? I think
that would be useful before we started any of the blocks. Have you and TfL seen the questions
and come here briefed on the questions?
Transport for London - 0:04:36
I have had them sent to me and the ones I have got answers to I will try and answer
them.
Perfect.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:04:45
Thanks very much.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:04:47
The first theme is the new stock and upgrades for the Central Line Improvement Programme.
My Vice Chairman has those questions.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:04:55
We will run through all of them and then I will pass over to other members who may want
to ask on this.
Councillor Soongar.
Thank you. Thank you, Jasmeet, for attending the meeting here tonight. We don't expect
you to have all the answers, but our residents are actually looking forward, and they're
on the webcast hoping to see some of their questions answered tonight.
So in terms of new stock and upgrades on the Central Line Improvement Programme, CLIP,
Can an update on the status of CLIP programme be provided?
B, how many refurbished trains are in service or been withdrawn or being upgraded?
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:05:38
Can I just jump in there? Would it be easier to go through one question at a time and have an answer, or do you want the whole block?
I'm happy to do whatever is best for you.
Would it be easier for you to answer?
I think it makes sense. Let's do question by question. We'll leave you with the first
one and then we'll go through one at a time. Thanks.
Transport for London - 0:05:57
Currently we have a foreign service with a fifth refurbished train coming in by the end
of the financial year, so that should be in the next two to three months. And then the
ongoing programme is we're literally taking a train, refurbishing it and putting it out
into service.
Thank you.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:06:17
That answers my next question, which is the timeframe when these refurbished trains will
enter the service.
The next question I've got is, what has been done about screeching the noise on that curve
from Stratford to Leighton?
I know that our Member of Parliament, Dr Neil Hudson, has raised this as well, so perhaps
you'd like to comment on that.
Thank you.
Yes, so this is a bit of an ongoing issue.
Transport for London - 0:06:40
We've had it not just from the Stratford bit,
we've also got it from Leighton to Wanstord,
which comes up when I go to see constituents in Redbridge.
We've tried a number of things to try and resolve this.
We've tried to change the sleepers on the track
as one of the issues.
Another one is we're hoping that when the trains are refurbished,
the newer trains should make them quieter.
One of the issues we've had is essentially,
we have a requirement to not have the noise go away from the trains so that for residents and houses and stuff, especially when you're going through tunnels,
the noise and vibration isn't going up, but then equally you have a legal requirement for the kind of decibel usage within the train.
So though it's within safe sounding, I mean, I use that service, so I'm not going to patronise people and say it's not loud and uncomfortable.
So it's something we've been working, we're helping the new trains kind of rectify that,
but it's an ongoing thing.
We've been doing a bit of trial and error, unfortunately not really sort of worked out
at the moment.
Thank you, that's very helpful.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:07:46
And what is being done about signalling failures?
So these are sort of failures that causes delays often, and I know that firsthand because
I'm a Chigwa with Lambourne Councillor and a lot of my constituents there always complain
about that.
So the signalling failures,
perhaps you want to comment on that, thank you.
So in the ideal world,
Transport for London - 0:08:08
we'd upgrade a lot of our signalling
and upgrade our train stock
if we were sort of in a perfect situation.
This refurbishment itself,
we wanted to do before the pandemic.
That was when it was programmed to come in.
I believe I actually came in here
and we were talking about this wonderful service
that we'd have in place sort of now
with all the brand new refurbished trains.
Unfortunately, the financial reasons and such,
we've not really been able to get there. So what we're doing is trying to prolong the life of the
services as best we can and try and keep it as reliable as possible. But hopefully going forward
now that we've got sort of more of a long -term financial deal we can start improving our services
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:08:49
so that they're more reliable. Thank you, that's very helpful. And my final question is are there
any actions planned to actually replace the worn out and the dirty seating in the central lines,
the trains but I know that also there's another question I've got is also I know you've done a
test run on the brand new central line from Haynal station perhaps you just like answer that for me
Transport for London - 0:09:11
thank you. Yeah so the the new trains for which are in service the fifth one will come in soon
that they'll be brand spanking new more or less they've got a new market on the seats as well
actually which is quite exciting but rather than kind of repairing the existing stock we're
refurbishing them so you just have new stock coming in. So we're focusing all our attention
on getting a brand new stock of trains. Well I say brand new but fully refurbished stock of
trains coming into service. And with regard to kind of the trains that went from Haynot,
if ever there's interest for sort of members or councillors to kind of have a show and tell and
stuff then I can arrange that with officers so you can let me know and I can arrange that for you
guys. Yeah that'd be great, thank you. Thanks very much. Thanks for that. So I'll open it up
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:09:55
to other members, has anybody else got questions
on this item?
So none from my committee, so I'll go to Councillor Lyon.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:10:03
Thank you very much, Chairman.
This is a programme that I've been watching
with very much interest and a great deal of disappointment.
You say there's four trains now and one to come.
Let's get to a bit more detailed.
I mean how many trains are there on the central line operating now?
Transport for London - 0:10:29
We roughly run around about 79 -82 trains that's that's kind of what it is at full
capacity. How many? Around about 79 -82, around that much. And because a number of them had motor
failures, the motor's been replaced now? So the issue we had was and actually we
to preempt this by refurbishing the trains beforehand was each individual wheel had a
bespoke motor that was fitted and when they were failing there was no way of preempting why or when
they would fail so they started to fail and then we had to bring in staff from sort of across the
board and work sort of night and day to replace every motor on every wheel on every train to get
them out. So I think we had a good sort of 18 months of disrupted service sort
of on the central line. You know I appreciate it was horrific to basically
go on. We've only managed to kind of get the timetable back to usual sort of in
the last six months or so where it's running a more regular service as it was
before sort of the trains were going out. They are mostly sort of repaired and
running and that's what slowed down the CLIP programme because all of the
resources we were using to refurbish the trains and also the financial
implications we had to do to fix this. So with those particular motors there
weren't parts that we could buy anymore so they were bespoke motors so we had to
get our engineers to essentially rebuild each one at each time so that was a lot
resource but that hopefully is behind us now we can focus really on the the new
clip trains and just to update you on the time scale is 2029 is when we're
scheduled to have a full service of clip trains so they should the last one
should be done by 2029 and it should be brand new refurbished trains so that's
three years from now.
Yeah, go ahead.
Go ahead.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:12:29
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:12:33
Right, we've got a considerable situation with graffiti.
Very bad seating. I mean, I know when I've been on the trains people have actually put newspapers down on the seats because they're so
disgusting.
Is there an interim programme or are we waiting for the trains to be refurbished for
the graffiti to be dealt with by CCTV maybe and the seating?
Transport for London - 0:12:56
So yeah it's a problem, you know it's almost like sort of 1980s New York subway style with the way the graffiti is on them.
We are working with the police, especially sort of at Haynot Depot as well.
It seems that that's where people are breaking in and sort of vandalising the trains, obviously it's criminal damage.
I can't disclose the programme of policing because they say it would jeopardise kind of their policing work.
if we kind of let them know how many officers or what they're doing but I've
been told that they're taking it very seriously because obviously it's
expense for us every train that comes in out of service is washed cleaned and
has to be ready to go out into service again and obviously if you get to that
about three in the morning and you got a lot of graffiti on a train either we've
got no choice but to run it or we have to not run it and try and sort of remedy
the problem on it.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:13:48
Councillor Larno, is it on this scene because we've deviated slightly from the upgrade
programme? We'll come back to it later.
Well, no, it's the upgrade programme. It is basically just the question that what you
have actually now proposed is quite different from what was proposed at the
beginning of the programme. It slipped very, you know, significantly.
So is there any way of improving that programme and moving faster? You're saying,
you know, things are going to happen but we're not seeing anything and you could
come back next year and tell us the same problem that you know you couldn't get
any more trains through so is there a defined programme of when those trains are
Transport for London - 0:14:30
going to be refurbished? So the current financial plan allows us to complete by
2029 the new TFL business plan should come out sort of February March time
when we'll have a sort of definitive idea of what our finances are being
spent on we only just got a sort of long -term deal for the first time in
about five, six years.
So we've been kind of working out how we can budget that
and spend that going forward.
I mean, what I say, if anything,
this is a proof of the lobbying case
to fund more money for TFL.
Cause this is what happens when we don't have the finances
to complete our programmes.
It's not just London that suffers,
but it's all of the people that are coming into London
cause we can't run a reliable service.
But yeah, we're accelerating as fast as we can.
We've just, it's been unfortunate
with the trains breaking down.
I think that's really put us back,
but we've got this funding circle, we'll probably continue to make the case to get more funding to
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:15:24
try and speed this up. Thank you. So I'll have Councillor Morgan next. Thank you. Can I just
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 0:15:27
ask you how long does it take to refurbish one of these trains please?
Transport for London - 0:15:35
First of all, I don't know off the top of my head to be honest but I imagine it's a few months.
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 0:15:40
So has this programme been going on literally since we saw you last for the past year?
Transport for London - 0:15:47
So it had, I believe when I last saw you we had the first train complete and then all
the motors went on all the other trains and what that meant was the depot space where
the trains were being stripped and repaired had to be taken up with repairing all the
trains that were out of service so we literally couldn't refurbish them until
we'd fixed all the ones that were breaking down to continue the service
and like I said we've only managed now to sort of get back on track with that
programme so yeah we're on four and five we probably should have been on double
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 0:16:23
that by now. Sorry just one more question I just so I can get my head
So what is, I can't quite understand this, so in the past year we've managed to,
because we'd already done, we've managed to do three upgrades because you've got them,
but we reckon within the next three years we're going to manage the other 95 % of the trains,
is that correct? So you've got more people working on them, is that correct?
Transport for London - 0:16:47
Yeah essentially that's what it is, so because what they're doing is they are literally taking
the train and then cabin by cabin, they're stripping the train completely down and then
rebuilding it from scratch.
And then that's every cabin on every train.
Then when that train goes into service,
then we can take another one out and do the same.
But what we can't do is take multiple trains out
because then we'll have less trains running on the service.
So we have to do it one by one.
And once one is completely refurbished,
then we swap it over and bring another one in.
Okay, thank you.
We've got Councillor Rackham.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:17:18
Thank you, Chia.
I was gonna ask a question,
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:17:22
but it's more relevant to safety and crime.
So I won't ask that question.
But I'm quite happy to go forward
with some train scheduling and performance questions,
if that's okay.
Thank you, Chair.
And thank you, Jasmeet, for coming.
I know you were here this time last year,
and you've braved us again, so well done, you.
Can I ask firstly, is priority given to the Haynaught -Newbury
park line over the Epping Lauten during driver shortages? So the way it works is
Transport for London - 0:17:57
we have the controllers in the control room and they would know what the
drivers are, how busy the tracks are and what the demand is. We know the demand at
each station at different times from when people tap out and tap in so we
know what peak times are and then that's how they make their decisions. Equally
there's times when if a train needs to go out of service or get to a depot then
it may only be able to take a certain route to get the train off the
track safely to do so. And then that sort of timetabling is continually reviewed
so as I said we've currently under the process of a review right now and we
should have a new timetable for August summertime and then that will reflect
what the usage and demand is going forward.
Can I ask something on that?
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:18:50
Why are we waiting until the summer when it will be quieter?
Why are we not putting that in place earlier?
Is there a reason for that?
Transport for London - 0:18:56
It's literally them collecting data and modelling.
What they do is they take all the data on board and then they'll model how that works.
So they'll go through the computer system or work out how different scenarios work to
get the one that's the most efficient for us.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:19:12
Okay, and secondly, why is the Epping service reduced compared with the Hainault service?
Transport for London - 0:19:20
My understanding of that is demand based, so I asked that question before coming.
I appreciate, especially when I'm at Stratford as well, and you wait two or three trains for the Epping one,
and that train is really busy, then it makes it seem like it's not possible to get back due to how busy it is.
So I have posed this question to our team as to what is the demand.
But they're telling me from the numbers we have, compared especially to say some of the central London stations we're serving,
it's not even the top 15 in terms of how busy it is.
So that is what they're saying at the moment is the best way.
But I feel like this has been made worse just because we've had a long period of time where
we've not had our full timetable.
So now that we've got more trains back in service, the next timetable that's going to
come into the summer will reflect that we've got more trains in service.
So that should provide a more regular service that can ease some of the issues with the
packed trains at peak times.
Yeah, and you can definitely guarantee that, can you?
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:20:27
I can definitely guarantee nothing at all.
Transport for London - 0:20:29
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:20:31
Okay, the reason I bring this up is because, you know, one of the main complaints we have
from our residents is the fact that they see three Hainault trains go by, the last train
being empty, and they're waiting for an Epping train, and they're on the fourth train, and
it's absolutely packed.
I understand that you're saying it's demand -based.
I know that's where you get your figures, but I think we need to look at this closely,
because don't forget, those passengers pay just as much as everyone else on another line,
and this is a real frustration to them. It really is. It's the number one bugbear that I was getting,
even above graffiti and everything else. It's why are there not enough trained?
And that's their perception. Whether it's wrong or right, that's their perception.
Transport for London - 0:21:18
No, I appreciate that. And perhaps the next time I come, I can bring one of our experts
who can go into the granular detail of how they do this, and it might then help you respond
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:21:31
residents as well. Yes, that would be great. Okay, so again this is sort of touching on what we've
just spoken about which is what can be done to improve reliability, is that
Transport for London - 0:21:43
again putting more trains on service? So that's what the sort of the premise
behind the refurbishment of the trains was, it wasn't just to have nicer trains
that last longer but it is reliability and to see it from our perception
obviously we want people to use public transport, we want more customers on
trains who are paying fares so the last thing we want is trains breaking down or
dissatisfied customers who then be like I rather drive than take the
train so it's just as frustrating as it is for you as it is for us so
we're investing a lot of resource into trying to refurbish these trains so that
they can last longer and break down a lot less. And one more question from a
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:22:17
resident that I can't fail to ask is are our trains going to be nice and
air -conditioned like the Elizabeth line? We're gonna have no air conditioning I
Transport for London - 0:22:25
because I think the tunnels are too small for the size of trains to allow
for air conditioning. Although our innovation team is continually looking
into what we can do so as and when technology allows for the trains of that
size to have air conditioning I don't think we'll have any on our trains.
So what would be an alternative?
Open the windows I guess, carry your fan.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:22:50
Okay. And lastly, again, residents, could the number of trains between Haynall and Woodford perhaps be increased?
Transport for London - 0:23:01
I think when the new timetable comes in, when we get that, I'll send that through and then we can scrutinise that.
That would be really good. Thank you.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:23:08
Transport for London - 0:23:11
If you want, I could go through what the new trains have that are different to the current ones.
Would we like to hear that?
Yeah, that would be helpful. Thank you.
So, we're replacing the motors and electrical systems so we don't have a repeat of the failures that we've had.
We are installing wheelchair bays, CCTV and customer information screens, so much like on the Jubilee line where you have what your next station is.
We're going to have those introduced. LED lights and the new moquettes on the seats.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:23:46
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:23:47
Can I just ask, have our trains at the moment got CCTV on them? I don't think they have them on every carriage.
Transport for London - 0:23:51
Actually I don't think the central line does have CCTV in the trains, so because that's a new feature
that we're installing on all of them. Okay, so the new trains will have and are we the only line that
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:24:07
Transport for London - 0:24:10
hasn't got CCTV or are there others? I don't know. Would you be able to find that out? I can try yeah. Thank you. So any other committee members on point two
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:24:16
have any questions? No okay so councillor Murray you were first. I just it's not a
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:24:23
new question but it's just kind of reiterating the point because I'm like
dear Saree and in fact I'm a war colleague of Saree which is a privilege
I'm a Loudoun Councillor and I just know that the residents in Loudoun and therefore
further along the line, so it will be Buckers Hill going that way and then further along
the line, just see with their own eyes the imbalance of the service between those stations,
going to those stations and going to Haynault.
Time and time again we are told by residents, as Sariyah said, two, three
Haynald trains and by the time you get to the third Haynald train it is virtually
empty and then they're being asked to pack onto a crowded either Loughton or
Epping train. Members can give examples but I'll give you one real example. I'm a
very keen Leighton Orient fan, okay, so about five o 'clock on a Saturday
late afternoon, Leighton station going towards those stations in Essex that are absolutely
packed because it's a well known fact that most Leighton fans live in Essex, okay, Leighton
or in France.
And we stand there for 20 minutes and we have three Hainor trains going through and then
we are all asked to pack on to a train that will sometimes stop at Loughton and sometimes
stop at Eppin.
That's just my experience.
Other residents tell me that that is happening regularly.
And I'm just not convinced with the answer that the figures show that that's where the demand lies,
because that's not the personal experience.
So I'm sure you can't say any more than you've already done,
but I just wanted to make that really loud and clear,
because I know we've got quite a few Loudoun colleagues here,
and it's one of the main things that we are told as their representatives.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:26:20
Transport for London - 0:26:21
I'd just like to use the opportunity to say that as a late Nordic fan you'll be
happy to know that the new latent station will be coming that will be
step free and bigger and nicer and shiny so that would definitely improve your
waiting time on the platform because it'd be a much nicer train. Thank you so
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:26:36
the Councillor Sunge next. Yeah thank you Jasmeet I think you're doing very well
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:26:45
so far in relation to the performance I just wanted to sort of
feedback, some information from our residents. I've been a Councillor nearly 10 years now
in Chego with Lambourne Ward. So we've got Chego station in our ward and a lot of the
residents are telling us the impact it has when they're missing trains, when trains are
not running on time. 20 minute wait, they have to do if they miss a train. And it's
really important for parents that are picking their children up, carers, workers. It's not,
I'm not trying to have a go at you, I'm just trying to give you the impact it has on our
residents, but it also undermines our sustainable travel objectives as a local authority, because
it forces our residents to say, we can't run around the trains, we're going to jump in
the cars.
Central line generates a significant amount of money from zone 4 revenue, so really the
residents are quite right in saying they want to have that money, value for money.
And I think Chigwell residents, and I speak for Chigwell on this occasion, they deserve
much better for their service. Can you please maybe perhaps comment on that and also take
it back to the powers of BEC if they can just understand and try to manage our expectations
why we're asking for a better service. Thank you.
Transport for London - 0:27:58
I'm also a user of the service as well as working for TFL and if I miss my train I curse
TFL and I realise I've got to answer my own questions so it's not really great. We are
We're trying our best to run the most reliable and efficient
services we can.
You know, sort of, I know to the customer that the reasons being
aren't of much sort of satisfaction,
but we've just had a lot of setbacks in terms of the trains
breaking down and not having our refurbished trains in service at
the moment, which would make the sort of experience a lot better.
We are trying our best.
We want to encourage people to use public transport as much
as possible.
I will try, perhaps, to get some of the data behind the
time table and then I'll send that through and then maybe when you can see the figures
and how it works out you can see some of the challenges we have.
And then, you know, we're always open to ideas that can encourage more people to use the
services so, you know, I never say never.
I'm happy to share the experiences sort of with our timetabling guides and see what they
can do.
Thank you.
Councillor Risby next.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 0:29:02
And firstly, can I go on record to express my apologies for lateness?
You won't make it up, I was using the central line to come in to make this meeting.
Thank you, Jasmeet, by the way, for coming down and giving us your time.
I found the October 2024 meeting very useful.
I am a Chigwell Councillor as well.
I'm a Chigwell resident.
I am a central line service user.
I have to use it very regularly to get into Mile End Hospital, to get into Bart's Hospital
at St Paul's.
So, you know, I've used the service for 20 plus years, actually, and my esteemed ward
colleague has been a Chigua Councillor for 10 years and I'm sure Councillor
Sunge would agree with me that from what things were like 10 years ago in terms
of the reliability, efficiency, frequency of services for us and our residents
along the loop it was far far better than what we are experiencing now and
this is all at the cost of rising fares, a poorer quality of service, poorer
carriages and our residents are fed up. And I'm going to share two real examples because
like many of my ward colleagues or members in the chamber, I ran a survey and I encouraged
residents to write to me and I had dozens, quite literally dozens of residents provide me feedback.
And the common themes are as we've outlined in the report, that frequency and reliability of the
service along the loop especially was the number one issue. Graffiti, the state of the carriages,
the noise along certain stretches of the Central Line was a common problem as well.
But the two examples which really, really struck quite deep with me
was one of a young man who had recently started a job in the city in a legal firm
and he was there on a graduate training programme.
And his route was from Chigwold directly into Bank on the Central Line station.
He was on a six -month probation.
During that six month probationary period, he was late at least two to three times a week,
despite taking two trains earlier to get him into work at nine o 'clock.
He lost his job, okay.
He has a young family, and I appreciate, you know, this is, it's just sharing the storey,
so it sets the context behind my question.
He lost his job.
He is now unable to earn a living.
He's unable to get a graduate job because of an unreliable work commute.
I think that is unacceptable, it's unfair and the impact is profound.
The other one is of a young apprentice who is working as a contractor,
working on behalf of a contractor, working in central London,
having to navigate the central line.
And again, apprentices are dispensable.
If you can't get to work on time, you're going to lose your job.
You're going to lose out on career opportunities.
Our residents in Chigwell are probably some of the most entrepreneurial,
some of the most ambitious across the entirety of the district
and they take their jobs really, really seriously.
Having a means of transport which is not fit for purpose
doesn't sit right with them.
So the couple of questions that I have are
why is it that the loop is so unreliable?
Why is it that we have barely one westbound service during peak times?
Why is it eastbound coming back in?
Somebody has to stop at Haynot, wait 25 minutes for a connexion for two stops,
or worse still, get on a crowded train which only comes through at Woodford once every 22, 23 minutes,
and can't get home properly after a long day's work.
It is wrong.
We are paying champagne prices for a lemonade service,
and I really hope, as part of your ideas,
ideas, one idea that I'd like to give you is increase the central line services through to Chiqua.
Transport for London - 0:32:50
So I live between Ilfer station and Gansil station, so I've seen the two extremes of when we get
funding where I get to use a shiny Elizabeth line with sort of air conditioning regular service
and then having to then use the central line which is dated and aged and quite old and quite
sort of grim. So I fully appreciate the contrasts of the best and worst of our
services at the moment. So it's not, we're not here to, well I'm not here to make
excuses for the current state of the central line. It's more, this is the
lobbying asked from us as an organisation. When we're funded and when
we have the opportunity to sort of put in new infrastructure, you get services
like the Elizabeth Line which has transformed a big part of East London.
And when we're not funded, then our services deteriorate.
We had a plan in place five, six years ago.
We saw this coming to refurbish all the trains and get them fit
for service.
And at that time, we weren't given the funding from central
government to do so.
And now we're sort of paying the price for that, as it were.
And that's why we're in this situation right now.
That said, you know, it's all about moving forward and what
we can do to improve the service as best we can.
So we're trying to accelerate this programme.
We're trying to get our services to be as reliable as
they can possibly be so that more people
are encouraged to use it.
People will use what is the best way to travel.
People will make their choices on the most comfortable and
quickest way to get somewhere.
And we're trying our best to make public
transport that choice.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 0:34:26
Thanks, Chairman, for allowing me to come back in.
And just to pick up on a couple of the points that you
mentioned, Jasmeet.
So we can't legislate for governments gone by and the government of the day.
Ultimately fares go up, congestion charge goes up, ULEZ goes up.
All of these are ways and means of funding a public transport system which should be
fit for purpose.
You mentioned the Elizabeth line.
I think it is phenomenal.
I've used it a number of times.
But something doesn't sit right with me fundamentally, which is why our central line users, specifically
in zone 4, along the loop in Chigarol, Grange Hill, Roding Valley and up top, Buckhurstill,
Loughton and beyond, why we should be paying the price for subsidising other service users
to have brand -spanking shiny new trains which are air -conditioned, which run on time, which
are extremely frequent, when we are being penalised. I think principally that is wrong.
It's not something which we can blame the government and the day on. The Mayor of London
says, as far as TfL is concerned, every journey matters, well, it should matter. It should
matter for central line users, Victoria line users, Piccadilly line users, there shouldn't
be preferential treatment to frequency of services, to efficiency of services on one
line at the expense of another. So, again, I plead with you, after October 24 meeting,
I'm pleased to report back, we had a noticeable improvement certainly along the loop, and
you know, if we can promise one thing to our residents at the end of this meeting,
I know you listened last time and you're clearly listening again today, which is please do go back
to the powers that be and explain to them from a scheduling and a timetabling point of view
that the residents along the loop are being neglected and they've been neglected for too long
and if they can do anything, even if it means at the peak times to increase one or two direct
westbound trains into the city of London, you know, that will go a long way at appeasing our residents.
Transport for London - 0:36:25
Yeah, just to make the point, we're the only transport organisation in a major city that
isn't funded from their central government, so Madrid, Paris, New York, they get government
funding to subsidise the services.
All of the fares that we make go back into running the service, so we don't make any
profit, or there's no kind of like stash of money that we get.
The only funding we get is for infrastructure projects, so if we're building a new line,
the Bakerloo extension or whatever, would work with third -party developers or with central
government for funding. So that's the predicament we're in, is that we have a finite amount
of cash and usage due to sort of in the past has dropped because we had the pandemic and
we were running services with empty trains and that diminished our cash reserves. So
we're not picking and choosing in terms of kind of we're only going to upgrade certain
lines. We're taking opportunities that are available to try and upgrade our service.
But obviously we want to upgrade the whole service because the more people that use our trains,
the more funding we get and the more money we make and it's better for us.
But in terms of the specific point on timetabling, it's a shame I couldn't have the update timetable with me today
because then we could have discussed it and seen how suitable it is.
But I will send that through and I'll ask for some of the rationale behind the decisions as well.
So I understand what the concerns are now.
So I can put the questions to them
before I send the timetable through
and I'll try and get some rationale
as to how they've come to decisions
and if there's any flex to change any of them.
Thanks very much.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:37:57
Councillor Morgan, you had your hand up earlier.
Still wanna come in?
I did and Councillor Sungga and Risby
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 0:38:02
actually highlighted most of the points
that I wanted to highlight.
And as a Great Hill Board Councillor,
we have got a lot of people that use these trains,
go to the station, find the station, the grain chills are closed, things are delayed. A lot
of my residents now have stopped using the loop line and driving to Woodford or when
they're not driving to Woodford, having to walk to Haynault. They've 20 minutes
earlier walked to Haynault because the trains are so unreliable and like Councillor Ritchie
said we have had a couple of people that have been warned that if they're late anymore
they're going to go on suspension. They're not happy and this isn't, like Councillor
Ritchie said, it's not acceptable. You know, 50 years ago, this shows how old I am, but
I used to use the central line, I still do use it occasionally, but we had three trains
quite regularly and like we've just heard, in the past 10 years they've been going
further and further downhill. Now I think we've got one at the moment that goes regularly
So we have got people not using the loop line and having to drive to Woodford.
So you're losing that and we are paying the money and you're saying the money we're paying
subsidises the service and we get new trains.
But that's fine if you live in London.
As soon as you get to Eppin Forest and outside, the money's not coming this far.
I'm sorry to say that but I'm quite passionate about this.
Our residents do deserve better.
And like we've just heard, Paul Guy lost his job over it.
We've got other people that are being told that they might lose their jobs
and if they're suspended, that's it.
It looks really bad on their work record.
No, I know I appreciate that and the challenge we have is, as you say,
Transport for London - 0:39:46
using the train, I mean, I struggle to believe you used the train 50 years ago,
but if you was, it's the same trains that are running and that's the challenge we have.
But I take the points on board.
Like I said, I can only apologise for the services
that we've had up until now,
and we'll try our best to improve that.
Councillor Rackham next.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:40:11
Thank you, I totally agree with both
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:40:15
my fellow councillors over there.
I think they've both really sort of
got to the heart of the matter here.
My question to you on one of the things
that Councillor Risby mentioned is we have a Labour mayor,
Sadiq Khan.
Before, yes, we had a Conservative government
and Sadiq Khan was moaning about the fact
that the Conservative government couldn't give him any money
or he did give them money, they did give him money,
but it wasn't enough.
So we now have a Labour government
and we have a Labour mayor.
So why have you not got funding for the services?
Transport for London - 0:41:00
So I'm going to be careful not to get into politics because obviously I'm politically
neutral civil servant, I am.
But we have secured a long -term funding deal.
The business plan, i .e. how we're going to spend that money will be sort of announced
in the next couple of months.
So then you'll see kind of where that money is going and then you can sort of feel free
scrutinise that and how we're spending that money. Thank You councillor Cohen.
Cllr Barbara Cohen - 0:41:31
Hi thank you. As you're in charge of your own finances do you not think you could
do something more about people that don't pay at the turnstiles because we
see often... I think we're going to come to that point next one is safety and
crime so I'll come back if that's okay thank you so has any other member got
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:41:50
questions on point two otherwise I'll move to to item number three safety and
crime and I'll go to Councillor Murray to go through the questions. Thank you
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:41:59
Chairman and thank you for inviting me to the pre briefing. So these are
questions around safety and crime which are important issues and I'll share the
questions. Are protocols in place to ensure drivers are focused when entering
platforms?
Transport for London - 0:42:21
I can tell you that because my brother is a train driver, so he gives me a lot more
information about just how stringent and strict it is.
I won't go into the details in case the union comes for me.
It is very strict and it is almost like a zero tolerance policy.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:42:50
Thank you Chairman and that's good to hear because we obviously all do pick up in the
media some of the difficult situations that drivers do face when they're entering platforms.
They happen across the network and unfortunately we had one with InLout and fairly recently
so I'm good to hear that answer.
I think to be honest Chairman if you agree, B's been well covered.
So I won't do B and I won't do C because that's been well covered, that's to do with graffiti.
And this is the one that my dear friend, Councillor Cohen, was on about and it does really annoy
people and I do D and E together, Chairman.
What is TfL doing about fair dodging in Loudoun and Depton and I'm sure in other stations?
and it really annoys our residents who are legal, decent and honest,
and they're tapping with their oyster, they're tapping with their debit cards,
and they see countless people just fair dodging,
and TfL staff are doing absolutely nothing.
They're just sitting there in the kiosk, to be blunt,
and I'm a union man, playing on their phone.
That's what they're doing. I've seen it time and time again.
Will CCTV help reduce these issues? Thank you.
Transport for London - 0:44:13
So on fare evasion or generally issues of crime on the network,
station staff are encouraged not to intervene for their own safety
because the trains are running anyway and every time someone pays,
that's a fare that's going to be paid towards the service, but the
service is still running so it's not worth the fare for putting a member of
staff in danger if that makes sense. So we try to discourage staff
for putting themselves in a position where they're not trained to deal with that.
That's more a policing matter. We do have trained revenue inspectors and we use
data from where we believe there's high amounts of fare evasion and then sort of
like hotspots and what and we use it not just data but we'll use sort of staff
input like I could for example following this go back to the revenue protection
guys and say I've heard at Loughton station there's a particular issue for
example and then they would then sort of programme sort of certain dates when
they'll go at certain times and they'll be in plain clothes and then they'll be
at the barriers and they'll be checking if people are using the tickets or taking
action against those who are not using the ticket. So that's how it works.
It's a big problem that we have because you can understand the sheer amount of
stations and passengers we have that we can't put a revenue protection
person at every station. So we have to do targeted enforcement. It's one of
those things where if you don't see it you think it doesn't happen but they are
targeted enforcement across the network that happens to try and deal with error rates.
Because obviously it's frustrating to you but it's further frustrating for us because
that's revenue that we could be getting that we're not getting and that we could then put
back into the service.
So we take it very seriously and we do do target operations and that.
But any feedback, so I will feed this back directly and then I'll see what they'll do.
Okay, thank you Chairman.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:46:21
Just one follow up question.
And does TfL have any way of indicating what they think is the likely percentage of fair
income they are losing through fair dodging?
Transport for London - 0:46:37
I can get you an estimate and I can send that back in rain.
Thank you.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:46:43
So over to the committee members.
Councillor Rackham.
Thank you.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:46:48
I know this sounds like a bit of an interrogation, but we're not interrogating you personally.
Can I ask how many people have been caught for fare evasion and at what stations?
I know you might not have that dated hand, but is it something you could get to us?
I can see what I can get.
Transport for London - 0:47:07
So most likely I could probably get you particular case studies of people going through the system
and what the punishments have been.
potentially number of people we've convicted over a period of time and then
what our estimated number of people who are fare -a -vading are. I don't know if I
can do like a breakdown on stations but we probably have I imagine an area by
area or line by line kind of some sort of data set so I'll see what data I can
get and I'll share what I'm able to share.
Following on from that, what do our British Transport Police do?
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:47:36
Transport for London - 0:47:39
So I do have an update on the policing side of things. So there's been a change.
So what used to happen was we paid for a particular sort of set of police officers that worked
on road safety.
BTP worked on anything on the rail or underground.
And then the Met Police, their jurisdictions will be on whatever area they're in.
So that's why sometimes you'll get issues.
If a crime is committed on a station, it's BTP.
and if it's committed outside the station it's the Met Police and then they argue about their stats and stuff.
But what is happening now is the Met Police is going to change,
so they're going to change the safety and police team and they're going to go into
their
neighbourhood town centre police teams. So rather than our officers being separate, we'll still fund our officers
but then they'll be part of the town centre teams and then they'll then have the jurisdiction to work sort of on transport matters.
So that should then allow them to have a more localised approach as opposed to what would
happen before is, well, we only look after this bit and you guys look after that bit.
So that's the plan going forward.
So that's coming to place now, and then we'll see how that kind of transpires going forward.
But in terms of BTP, their specific jurisdiction is rail underground.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:49:04
And lastly, yeah, you've sort of filled us in on the graffiti issue.
So you think most of it's going on at the Haynot depot?
Yeah, would you say?
It's got another little question to ask.
Transport for London - 0:49:19
It's not that it's all at the Haynot depot
because obviously we have the depot in Acton also.
Yeah, okay.
But my understanding from,
cause I asked the station manager,
the depot manager basically at Haynot
as to what's happening at that end.
And they've got a plan with the police
to try and sort of rectify that.
Okay, my question on that is,
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:49:39
How are they getting to do the graffiti inside the carriages?
I don't know.
Transport for London - 0:49:45
So they're either breaking in or they're doing it
while it's in service.
Yeah, that's what I was asking.
So do you think they are doing it?
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:49:53
And that follows on from CCTV.
Because if you had CCTV on the trains and people
were graffiting, you'd be able to catch them.
And it is a crime.
Which is why the new ones will have CCTV.
Transport for London - 0:50:08
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:50:14
I'm happy to answer questions, it's fine.
Transport for London - 0:50:16
I'll make this question brief, because it just follows on from the graffiti point.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 0:50:21
I know our Member of Parliament, Dr Neil Hudson, has done a lot of raising of this exact issue.
actually needs gone so far as writing to the mayor of London I wonder if that is
something that I appreciate you in an individual capacity may not be aware of
but can you give us some assurances that that complaint or that issue which he
has raised to the very top of transport for London is being given consideration
and you know whether we'll get a proper response back to it because you know it
is like it's like Gotham City really is you know some of the the trains are
completely unrecognisable.
Provided you promise not to don a cape and become Batman.
Transport for London - 0:51:00
I can provide this committee a response to myself.
So I don't know who's going to draught from the mayor's office the response to your MP,
but I can provide you guys a response to myself.
Thank you.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:51:19
So I'll finish with the committee members and then I'll go to everybody else.
We've got Councillor Whitehouse.
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 0:51:26
On the safety section, I've got a question from a resident asking if Epic Station is adequately staffed at peak times and early morning and late evenings.
Transport for London - 0:51:37
I don't know what the staffing numbers are, but we would not be allowed to keep a station open if we didn't think it was safe and with the required number of staffs needed to have it safe and open.
What is the required number of staff?
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 0:51:51
Transport for London - 0:51:53
I don't know off the top of my head but I can find out for you.
Thank you.
Councillor Soongar.
Yeah, thank you.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:52:00
Just want to roll back to one of the questions that Councillor Murray asked about the cleansingness
of trains and facilities.
Now talk about facilities, graffiti.
That's an ongoing sort of a challenge.
Do you want to comment on that, where we are with that?
I mean, are you, how are you getting on with the graffiti on the trains, et cetera?
Transport for London - 0:52:19
So yeah, as I said, we're working with the police to try and sort of rectify this.
It's obviously costing us money to clean the trains and to repair any damage that's
sort of been carried out because when they go out of service they're given a sort of a fresh
wash before they come back in. So if there's any additional graffiti on there either we have to
run it with graffiti because we can't then take a train out of service or there's a cost and expense
of trying to get that rectified. So we are aware, we are taking it seriously. It's an ongoing issue
with the police that we're trying to rectify. Thank you so if all committee
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:52:57
Cllr Barbara Cohen - 0:52:58
members are... Councillor Cowan. The guards that are at the stations at the moment
Transport for London - 0:53:14
what exactly are they is their job description? Well I won't go into the exact job description but
essentially their job is to provide customer care to customers coming in. So if you needed
ticketing information, if you needed journey time information, if you needed to know how
to get somewhere, if someone with accessibility issues needed to get onto the platform, their
job is they are essentially customer care. That's what their role is. But what we don't
encourage is for them to then go into confrontation or anything that puts their safety at risk.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Nwoki.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Chidi Nweke - 0:53:49
I was a bit concerned just listening to you when you said there's no CCTV's or there's
few CCTV's on the central line, knowing how busy it could get sometimes and very, very
packed.
So I'm just wondering, do you keep crime statistics for each station?
And if you do, how do you monitor this?
because considering how busy the central line can get,
there could be a lot happening.
And do we follow up and keep the log of the events happening
in each station?
I mean, not the whole department.
So yeah, we have a whole department
Transport for London - 0:54:28
that works on keeping our services safe and secure.
And we have funding police officers.
We have our revenue protection officers as well
that are a part of that team.
They'll have stats on reported crimes,
they'll have stats on reported crimes by station, by line.
We work with the BTP,
and then we'll scrutinise them on their stats and their data,
and then that's how they do their kind of taskings
going forward to prevent crime.
We take it massively seriously.
And it's not just to stop crime, but it's the prevention of crime,
so, sorry, the perception of crime.
So this is why, for instance, the graffiti matter
It's something we take very seriously because if you see graffiti on a train you feel like
it's not safe and if you feel unsafe and you feel like a crime is going to be committed
against you, it's just as bad as a crime being committed against you.
So we don't want people feeling that on our services.
So yeah, we have stats and data and we use that data to inform our responses going forward.
Thank you.
Cllr Chidi Nweke - 0:55:27
It's good to know that you're keeping stats for that.
And that brings me to my next question.
If you are keeping statistics in terms of crime that is happening within various stations,
I am sure that would have highlighted the number of fare dodgers that is happening within
Lauting and Debding.
For that reason, I would expect that you have more inspectors visiting those stations, but
I hardly see any.
What do you use the statistics to do?
Transport for London - 0:55:56
I think what would be best is if I share, when I go back, if I get some data on, I'll
get the crime stats, I'll get the estimated fare evasion stats or what available information
we have and solve some of the enforcement activity that we've done or the types of enforcement
activity we do and then I can share that with the group.
That would be very helpful, thank you.
So if you wanted to come back in, yeah.
Well, hopefully this is the last one.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:56:21
Cllr Chidi Nweke - 0:56:23
I was just wondering, TFL is a large organisation
and we have working across different councils.
I just wondered, is there any process or policy
that you have that allows you to work in collaboration
with different councils to understand
what the root problems are in different areas?
Because in Loughton we have different issues
compared to London boroughs.
So do you collaborate with councils to actually speak to them in advance to understand what different areas are facing?
Thanks, that's a great advert for my job.
So that's essentially what I do.
Transport for London - 0:57:02
So I look after my geographical patch which is predominantly East London and Essex.
So I work with all of the transport officers, I work with all the councillors,
I would work with various stakeholder groups and where there is opportunities for collaboration
between boroughs or where there is issues raised in areas, I take away the borough boundaries
and just treat it as we have an area, a problem in this area or a problem with this line or
a problem with fare evasion and then that helps our officers make decisions going forward.
So what I try to do is provide as much information to you guys and be as transparent as I can
and then I feed that information back into the organisation,
and then that helps them make decisions going forward.
I promise, last one.
Cllr Chidi Nweke - 0:57:53
So just wondering, in terms of, you said you monitor crime and crime rate,
you must have ways that you implement to reduce the crime rate in different areas.
Do you monitor this, and is this mechanism working?
If not, what are you doing to improve it? Because like we said, that's a lot of fair dodging in Debden -Loughton
And if you know it's happening, what are you doing to fix it?
Transport for London - 0:58:21
So I'll try to get some updated information
Hopefully it was a job I used to do but it was like ten or ten years ago
What we what was the case then is we work with the Met Police with BTP with boroughs
So if you take an example of a town centre, the Met police will say this is what's happening in the town centre, this is the crime here.
BTP will say this is what's happening at the station, on the busses.
And then there will be a crime scrutiny with the local council or the authority where they'll discuss kind of like these are the issues.
And then the conversation will be around, well okay, what do you resolve it?
Sometimes we need some urban realm design work,
so it could be put cameras up or remove sheltered spaces
or redesign it so that there's not so much crime going on.
Other times it's more policing activities
or community activities.
Other times it's just more police presence.
So sometimes you have police officers with stalls up
to show they're visible and listening
to constituents and residents.
But not everything is stat -based
because obviously that's only recorded crimes
and not everyone reports crimes
or not everyone will be bothered
to report an instance that they've had. So part of the job I do is I will feed back
what councillors tell me from their residents as well and that'll be a part
of all of the information they put together to do their tasking going
forward. Thank you. So have any other members got any questions on safety and
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 0:59:44
crime? So if not we'll move over to point four which is stations and surrounding
areas. I'll go to Councillor Whitehouse to go through the questions. Thank you
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 0:59:55
eping and station approach. The pavement along station approach has large cracks
in it, it's very uneven, quite difficult to walk on and there are frequent leaks
along the road there. So the question is how often are the pavements and the road
inspected and when are they going to be repaired? So this is one I want to take
Transport for London - 1:00:20
back to our asset operations team. So I think they will go out on the list
if it's safe and they'll make any sort of repairs that they need to make on it.
So does that mean that you don't do regular inspections, you wait for
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 1:00:34
residents to tell you there's something awful and then someone comes out?
Transport for London - 1:00:42
No, so we have, we have a, so we call them asset -op teams and what they do is they go
around and they do our cleaning and they'll do our cutting of
vegetation and they'll do our repairs and such. If something goes wrong and it's
to them so normally is flagged by our staff or if it's flagged by station
manager or whatever then that's what they'll go out and do equally if it's
raised so if a councillor raises it or resident raises it I can flag it or
transport officers or highways officers at various boroughs can raise that
because obviously they can't just be out looking for problems because they're
normally resolving problems or fixing things so I appreciate anything that's
flagged we can we can get that resolved and fixed what I'll do is I'll send
through the various ways you can self -report as well and then that might be helpful.
I was going to say people don't always know who to report to because I
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 1:01:29
think you were going to give us a contact last time but yes that would be
very helpful. So the next question is about the toilets. Why are the toilets so
often closed or reporters dirty and usable? I think one resident was
particularly think for Epping but another resident's talking more generally about
Transport for London - 1:01:51
toilets along the line. We're currently reviewing our toilets, it's not the most
exciting project name but it's being looked into to make sure that
they all use a boarding condition to be used and they're safe as well. There are
times when due to staffing we can't have them open because people use the toilets
for committing crimes or taking drugs or whatever it is so that's
That's one of the reasons.
But that's something that's being reviewed right now.
Okay, thank you.
And the other one is on the roadway.
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 1:02:23
Are there any plans to expand station parking at Epping?
I know this has been an ongoing problem for a very long time.
And also the mini cabs that are parked down at the station, are they regulated in any
way?
and the problem of pollution.
There's a big sign up that the environmental people
have put up saying about idling their engines,
that people just don't seem to take notice of.
There's a real pollution problem a few years ago,
which I know I had lots of meetings about.
Transport for London - 1:02:58
I can look into the issue with the minicabs
and whether they're parking illegally
and we need enforcement officers to go and move them on.
In terms of parking,
I'm not aware of any plans to expand parking. If I'm honest and fairly blunt I
really doubt we'll do anything to sort of put more parking bays in place. We
haven't been removing parking because that's also actually a revenue stream
for us in certain places but going forward it's unlikely that we'd sort of
provide more car parking. We'd probably want people to not drive maybe
maybe cycle or take sort of bus routes in.
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 1:03:43
I think the problem with the parking of the cars there is the busses coming down
and getting back up but on the other hand you know where can the people park
to pick up people to go out the villages it is a really difficult situation so I
do appreciate the difficulty of side as well and then the questions are about
stations I'm not so familiar with so are there plans to instal a display board
for arrivals at Grainshore station?
Transport for London - 1:04:11
So a display board for... That's a question yes a display board for arrivals.
Not that I'm aware of. And lastly is there an update on reinstatement of land on
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 1:04:24
the bank between the railway line and Lechmere Avenue? So could you repeat the
Transport for London - 1:04:28
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 1:04:33
last one please? Reinstatement of the land on the bank between the railway
line and Leccemette Avenue perhaps local councillors will be more familiar with
this than I am I've just been asked to give the question. Is this Chigwell? The
Transport for London - 1:04:46
embankments that were re -fortified to make them safer? That was going to come in
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 1:04:54
yeah that's exactly the piece of land so I think a resident actually wrote to us
asking when that was going to happen I think some work is in progress I'm not
sure if the timelines then when it's going to be completed if I'm right I
can I can ask a project even get back to that I'm familiar with with that site
Transport for London - 1:05:10
thank you okay so any questions from committee members
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:05:18
Cllr Arash Ardakani - 1:05:25
Councillor Bromage thank you at risk of getting this can of worms throwing it
around the chamber and talking about multi -storey car parks
Cllr Tom Bromwich - 1:05:30
in Epping, what's happened with the,
there was a proposal a few years ago
to turn Epping car park into a multi -storey.
I'm wondering if those have had any development,
not saying that I'm for it,
but because I know it's a sore subject in this room,
but whether there's been any development.
There's no plans I'm aware of of building sort of a car park there.
Transport for London - 1:05:58
Like I said to be transparent I very much doubt if we were to build on our land that
would build a car park we're most likely to build a development of housing or units
if there was an opportunity to do so.
Thank you.
Any more committee members?
No so I'll go to Councillor Morgan.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:06:19
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 1:06:22
Thank you. The plans to instal the display board for arrivals at Grange Hill, that's
the same with Chigwell as well, it's actually at the top because you can never tell when
the train is coming unless you're actually on the platform. So when you're at the top
you actually have to wait at the top and wait to see if the train, whether they're coming
eastbound or westbound to then run down to get on them. So residents have asked can we
have to display at the top so they can actually see when the trains are coming. And that's
not just at Grange Hill, that's at Chigwell.
Transport for London - 1:06:58
So what you have like a countdown on the platform but you don't know what platform to go to
unless you have the, okay I'll ask, I understand the question now.
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 1:07:08
And the second, sorry, and the second one was about the land in Lectromere Avenue, it
the banking. It's been going on for years, as I'm sure you know, but what's happened
is that the company that TfL had in to do it was supposed to put the land back as was
and they haven't and there's a dispute on whether Qualis can take it back because
you haven't put it back as was. We just want some update on when you're going to
reinstate the land to its former glory and the trees, the trees that were on there are
dying and it's almost waste height in weeds. It went past there earlier today. Thank you.
I'll go back and get a specific response to that.
Transport for London - 1:07:51
Is yours on the display board?
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:07:55
It's a sub -question of that.
Do you mind if I go to the others and I'll come back to you? So we've got Councillor Murray next.
Just a quick general point, two general points.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 1:08:05
I'm a teacher of high profession so I do want to recognise improvement and I'm not being patronising.
You have come along better informed this year. I do find that your level of answering the questions is a lot better informed than last year's.
Thank you for that and that leads me to a question for you Chairman.
It's only happened a few times. Are we keeping a record of the questions that we've had a promise that they will come back on?
I assume we are.
Lovely. Thank you, Chairman.
Thank you. Councillor Kaufman.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Will Kauffman - 1:08:44
I've been debating where's the best place to sort of drop this question, and display board seems to be the best one.
TfL did me very well the other day because, like the idiot I am, I drove down to the station car park,
drove in, paid my, what is it, 10, 11, 12 pounds to get my car dented.
I then walked in the rain to get onto the platform to then discover that the central line wasn't running.
So you then think, great, so back out you go, slip sliding down through Loughton Station,
where people were jumping over the barriers, and got in my car and then drove into central Loughton,
so you got me for the congestion charge too.
So what would be really handy is to have where you've got the entrance to the car parks,
It's just simple to know whether or not the service is running
because I can't have been the only person that paid 12 pounds
to the privilege of going home.
I don't know if we can somehow get that documented.
So it would literally be as simple as a dot matrix sign
saying good service, no service.
If there's no service, I can class her off and do whatever
I need to do elsewhere.
I'll give you something I can try to do to help rather than
Transport for London - 1:09:54
the cheque before you travel nonsense that you don't want to hear from me. I can see
if I can ask the station team if this trains aren't running can they just put a whiteboard
out that says it. I'll ask the station manager if they can do that.
Thank you that would be very helpful. Thank you. Councillor Risby.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:10:12
Thank you Chairman and so I'm going to ask this question in two parts because actually
it's very important for journey planning. So often as you know Jasmuheep, tourists or
people who are infrequent users of the central line might look at the TfL journey planner
either on their phone or on the computer.
Why is it that what you see online in terms of the journey planner where it gives you
an estimated journey route with the time from your origin to your destination, why is it
that when you actually reach the station there is a big inconsistency with it?
So let's say my train is supposed to leave at 8 .18,
a symbolic westbound train from Chigwell
directly through to central London.
Why is it if I get to the station at 8 .18,
that train is either 16 minutes away
or it's gone like six minutes away.
So why is there such a big difference
between what you see online to what actually happens
on the actual platform, number one?
I'll let you ponder over that one.
Transport for London - 1:11:15
The second one is at Chigwell specifically,
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:11:18
the issue that we have is you see a board which says this train is meant to
go to West Ryslip. People think it's going westbound and I can see
colleagues you know smirking over this because it probably happened to them as
well it's happened to me a number of times. So you see it going to West Ryslip
but then all of a sudden the station changes and it's supposed to terminate
at Woodford. Now if you were trying to plan your life for a journey or an
commitment or as I was stung very very badly anniversary it means that the
booking or the reservation that you've got at the restaurant you're practically
unable to make it so you know and I'm giving these as personal experiences I'm
sure everybody has been affected in some way shape or form but you know I I can
joke about it but at the same time it could be a resident of ours who's got a
hospital appointment or you know they've got a funeral to attend or a really
really critical event so what is it you know I cannot understand what is it that
leads to these sorts of inconsistencies?
Firstly for apologies for ruining your anniversary.
Transport for London - 1:12:25
I hope you got another booking and if it was somewhere nice can you recommend it to me too.
I've got my wife's birthday coming up.
I mean I'll have to look and ask the question the only tidbit I know is that
when you have the time on the countdown timer that is how far it is not when it
will come so it's the train is two minutes away but not necessarily all
coming two minutes which is something I didn't know but yeah I'll ask you know
I'll see what they can do now I'll tell them that they owe you a restaurant
reservation.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:13:06
And the second point was about why does the station change?
So let's say even, you know, forget White City, if it's going to go to, I don't know,
Ealing Broadway, right towards the end, why is it that all of a sudden, you know, is it
because the driver wants to clock off early, is it because the train is faulty, what is
the, because there must be a reason.
There's no way that a service can run, you know, and at the 11th hour it can change its terminating station.
It's simply not possible because you have to think about, you know, stock and how much fleet you've got along the tracks.
Transport for London - 1:13:43
I'll tell you from my brother's experiences, because he likes them on to me about this stuff,
and I don't understand half the technical stuff he tells me,
but there's a huge complex array of issues, why they have to move trains, change trains,
someone's gone out of service, there might be a signalling issue
somewhere, there might be a platform issue somewhere else, there's a whole
array of complex issues behind this but like I said what I'll try to do is I'll
ask the timetabling guys, I'll add this to the list of questions I've provided
them and then hopefully they can give maybe just kind of like why it happens
what we're doing about it. I guess you don't really need to know the all the
ins and outs of the problem, just what we're doing to try and resolve it.
Perfect, thanks very much. You wanted to come back?
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:14:32
Yeah. And just a final question, on a separate theme, but it does fall under the
category of stations and surroundings.
One of the points that was raised to me by a couple of residents actually is the
state of,
and again, Chigwell in particular,
the state from the outside, so the exterior, but then the
you know, the kind of the actual platform itself, you know,
the painting, everything, you know, the state of the station really looks like it is 50 odd years ago when Lisa Morgan used to use it.
So I think it is something which needs a close look at.
And I wonder, as a humble request, this one, whether, you know, as part of an improvement or an upgrade programme,
if Chigwell Station can be included into any kind of upgrade, at least from a cosmetic point of view.
Transport for London - 1:15:23
So one of the things I did when I first joined TfL was actually go across the loop and look at
every station to review the condition it's in, which is something that we do. And it's for safety,
cleanliness, you know, are the benches faulty, are there pigeons getting stuck, you know, all of that
kind of stuff. And you then report that back and then, dependent on how bad it is and the funding
available, you then a lot of the stuff we do is make good or try and repair to
keep the stations open and keep them running. In other places we've tried
because we don't always have the funding to sort of redecorate a station as it
was, do community projects where we allow members of the community if they want to
come in and do some some work or planting or whatever it is to make the
station feel more like their own or try and kind of take better care of their
stations. So any kind of initiatives you have or any kind of work you want to do
into that, feel free to email me offline and I can try and look into what we can do.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:16:28
Thank you, Chairman. I just want to say that you're doing really, really well. We're halfway
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 1:16:30
through this meeting and I can see that members are very keen to ask a number of questions
and they're good questions, but you're doing really well and I hope that you're taking
note of everything here. Members, if we can just be a bit more sympathetic. Thank you.
Councillor Morgan.
Hopefully this is my last question of the evening.
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 1:16:52
Thank you for Councillor Bisbee for highlighting that because at Grangeill and Chigwell we
have got plaster falling off walls and things.
But my question really was, as you come out of Grangeill station there is no lights anymore
outside the station.
They really do need to have a look at the lighting outside of our stations for the safety
of our residents.
You can't see as you're walking through and I have seen quite a few residents tripping over and
things outside the station because of bad pavements but it would be nice to have some
lighting outside there and outside Jiggle Station as well please. Thank you. I'll look into
Transport for London - 1:17:28
uh sort of the land ownership and and whatever and see what can be done. I haven't been to
Grangeville for a while but I'll see what um what situation. Perfect thank you. Any more member
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:17:43
questions on stations that's that's no we'll move on to future expansion I'll
Cllr Tom Bromwich - 1:17:52
Cllr Rose Brookes - 1:17:56
go over to Councillor Bromwich the question. Thank you very much and you
have this I'm sure nearly every time you come here but it's really about the
step -free access at Loughton and it's great to have it at Buckhurst Hill which
only happened relatively recently we've got it at Debden but it would be
appreciated by a great many customers and is there any sort of chance of having it in the next five years?
So the
Transport for London - 1:18:21
the truth of it is the sort of pragmatic approach we're taking is we're looking at where we can get third -party funding to
initially pay for feasibility.
So what that would mean is if we can get money from local authorities or if there's sort of a
development coming by and you get the section 106, the first phase is can we
pay to find out how much work is required and how much that will cost. So
that's usually dependent, it could be like a couple hundred grand on the work
that's required. We then want to use that information once we have the stations
because then that's one step forward. That feasibility report usually is in
date for like a three or four year period as in like then construction
costs change and technology changes, we can then use that to bid for money when opportunities
arise because we can say look we've done the feasibility, we know these are the exact costings
and we're ready to move forward with these stations. So the last one that was done for
example with Layton, we got a significant amount of money from Waltham Forest to pay
towards that over a period of time and that's how we were able to progress that. So we put
money in and the Department of Transport money in and Waltham Forest put money in. So that's
we are, we don't have the funding to pay basically to do the works, but we're looking where we
can to partner up to at least move it one step forward to see if we can at least get
the feasibility done. And then what that helps with is we'll know what the exact amount,
what the exact costings are, so when you're lobbying you know exactly what you're asking
for.
I'll just slip in with one more because it does relate.
Cllr Rose Brookes - 1:19:56
Part of my ward backs onto TFL, the train line in Loughton.
What I find difficult is communicating.
You get an automated response about an issue, say trees that are overgrown on TFL land.
Getting a response is really difficult, extremely difficult.
Often you get none at all in the end apart from the automated and then their
resident rings you up and said oh by the way they have done some of that work.
You know that's what I find very frustrating you know particularly having
Transport for London - 1:20:40
dealt with customer complaints. Is this are you going to customer services or
you're going to your borough offices? This is on when you go to the generic
Cllr Rose Brookes - 1:20:47
contact TfL about a customer issue and what's your problem? That's where I
find I don't really get a response or it's very rare to get one. You can come
Transport for London - 1:21:00
to me as a counsellor and then I can find out the schedule of when they cut back
the vegetation and then you can have that to know when we do our plan cuts
but then equally you can raise it if you feel there's a need or they're over
growing and then I can send the team out. So you can do that
rather than doing it in your capacity as a resident, as a council you can contact
me directly and then I'll be your, I'll navigate TFL for you.
Right, short of contacting Sadiq.
Cllr Rose Brookes - 1:21:34
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:21:36
Cllr Stephen Murray - 1:21:41
Thank you, Councillor Murray. Yes, this came to mind because it has been raised
with me a couple of issues because I take the point about disability access
But what would be helpful in Loughton, and I don't know how many members use Loughton,
I would think a goodly number, the four entrances onto the platforms are very wide.
And at peak times I've had it put to me that unless you can get to the left hand rail or
the right hand rail, they are actually quite difficult steps to use for people with some
mobility.
And therefore, is there any consideration that a central rail, a hand rail could be
put down the middle because from a layman's point of view,
they are wide enough to have a sense,
and it would be safe enough to have a central well
put down each of the four things.
I'm being told like Stratford,
don't necessarily expect you to have the answer to now,
but I just want to put it on the record.
So you can say that.
I can ask the question.
There's no harm in asking.
Transport for London - 1:22:38
Because I've had that put to me by a number of elderly
people that that would make it slightly easier
Cllr Stephen Murray - 1:22:43
for them to use it out in station.
Perfect, thank you.
Councillor Whitehouse.
I just want to follow up Councillor Brooks's question.
It's very nice to know that we as councillors
Cllr Janet Whitehouse - 1:22:52
can contact you to get answers.
But there are lots of residents who are using that,
you know, information service or whatever it's called,
who are getting all these, you know,
acknowledgements but no answer to their questions.
So it looks as if the whole system there needs looking at.
So perhaps you can take it up on behalf of the residents
who are trying to get responses.
Transport for London - 1:23:17
I'll be honest with you, customer services is not my bag, I don't really know but I rely on you guys.
Yeah, I can ask the question. I mean I'm happy for them to do it and then I don't have to deal with it so yeah, that's all good.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:23:31
Thank you. So we can move on to item five and future expansion. I'll go to Councillor Bromwich.
Cllr Tom Bromwich - 1:23:35
Thank you, Chair. First of all, Councillor Brooks, I thought that was an excellent comment.
I lived in Loudoun for 13 years on the road in the state
and I never once realised that Loudoun had no step,
no, it didn't have step -free access,
which is unbelievable, I personally think.
Jasmit, we've spoken before over Zoom
and I only realised that when you walked in
and we've spoken a lot about the Eppingonga Railway,
so we're gonna speak a little bit more about it.
So I think myself and my friend, Councillor Burrows,
So the only council is to represent a lost tube station.
So I think we're in quite a unique position there,
but a little bit of a history lesson.
I've got two, my question is formed of two parts.
I'm gonna do one part of it first and then the next part.
So in the seventies, there were about 1 ,120 passengers
going along from Epping to Onga.
And at the time it was losing back then 83 grand a year.
So now that's about 3 .7 million in today's money.
And I think I remember reading it somewhere that one of the station managers said that it would be cheaper to give every single one of those passengers an Austin 7 car each instead of keeping the line open.
However, now we're looking at a different reality.
We're looking at Epping Forest District Council developing
significantly 11 ,000 new homes by 2033 with about 2 ,300 of them
in North Weald and about 600 in Onga.
That could be another 7 ,000 people who could use the line
if it's reopened, which could bring up to, which could bring
So my question is, my first question is why is TFL not pursuing reopening of the Epping
to Onga line for commuters, especially given the financial incentive that will clearly
exist once these houses are built?
It seems like a real, an opportunity that should be seized for TFL but also benefit
the local community.
And then I'll ask my second follow -up question after.
Transport for London - 1:25:53
The short answer really is we are in no financial position to reinstate a station, the trail
line, then the staffing, then the trains that will have to service that station also, because
that would then be a cash expenditure or a capital expenditure that we don't have and
an ongoing capital expenditure that we don't have at this moment in time.
But further to the conversation we had sort of outside of this space when we discussed
this, if the district council want to pursue this, if there's one or six opportunities
from the developments that are coming in, if there's opportunities for third -party funding,
you know, you can build a business case, we will have the conversation, I can try to look
into what kind of funding's required,
what kind of ongoing funding's required,
what kind of modelling we do, you know, what is, for example,
the capital expenditure for opening and running a station
or a service in sort of out of London,
and then see if that kind of matches up.
So I'm happy to kind of facilitate
the conversations on that.
But the reality is we're nowhere near to having
sort of that kind of money to do things like that.
Cllr Tom Bromwich - 1:27:18
Thank you and that's actually, actually that's one of the most encouraging
answers I've heard from this room. So my second follow -up question is in relation
to that point, like Councillor Isby said earlier on, I did a resident survey,
about 400 people respond to it and about 80 % of everyone in my ward wanted to see
the line reopened. But is TfL willing to sit down with the council and local
groups such as the Eppingonga Railway, who I think is a brilliant heritage asset for
our district, to see if there is a way we can get a midweek peak service running on
the tracks that are already there, so not doing anything new, perhaps run by the Eppingonga
Railway and supported by TfL, and would there be a place for TfL in helping to find some
funds or contributing or helping towards a feasibility study like you mentioned to build
the business case for reopening the line. Thank you.
I can facilitate a conversation.
Transport for London - 1:28:17
I mean, the worst that will happen is the numbers will say
that it can't happen,
but there's no reason not to sort of look into it.
So I'm happy to try and,
I'll try and get some data first on our end,
just to see if it's worth the conversation or, you know,
whether there's a different approach to look at it.
And then, yeah, we can progress that.
Perfect. Thank you.
Do any other members have any questions on future expansion?
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:28:42
Doesn't look like it, so we'll move on to section six,
which is why the transport integration,
I'll take these two.
So the first one is on the oyster system.
So generally a lot of people going to Epping
are travelling from Harlow,
and that would ease a lot of pressure
on the station car park particularly,
if oyster was accepted there.
So is that a possibility?
Is that a Harlow station?
Transport for London - 1:29:07
Yes, to extend the Oyster system to Harlow.
I know we are reviewing our whole ticketing system.
Oyster has been around for a significant amount of time and I believe there is probably better technology out there to run a more seamless ticketing system.
So that is something that we are looking into.
Whether it will expand to other stations or how it would work with other networks, I am not sure.
but I do know that we're kind of,
it's something that we're reviewing.
Thank you.
So the other item to me is as a Waltham Abbey Councillor,
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:29:38
it's not the trains, it's the bus services or lack of.
So that's the one item I hear from my residents
is about the poor bus services.
So are there any TFL plans or possibilities
of getting some sort of bus service back to Waltham Abbey?
I preempted this and I asked someone.
Transport for London - 1:29:56
That's why I'm just reading the answers.
I'm not just going on Facebook or whatever.
So what I was told is that there'd have to be a very clear business case where,
because we run the bus services generally at a loss, that's kind of how it works,
and bus revenue is not quite where it was sort of pre -pandemic and we're trying to encourage
more people to use the bus services so that we can utilise that. It will come down to
numbers. If there is a business case where we feel there is enough passengers using the
service to extend the bus service, then that is something we would look into. Maybe it
is one for Wolfram Avi transport officer or someone to talk with our bus network guy and
they can look at what the data and numbers and modelling is.
Perfect, thanks very much for that.
So I'll go to committee members.
Any questions on this point?
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:31:00
Councillor Burris?
Oh, the next one.
Okay, Councillor Murray.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 1:31:07
Just make a point because we got the Chancellor
of Essex sitting here, Councillor Whitbread.
Bus, the TFL busses outside of the borough of London,
by London Burris, haven't been held by the fact
that Essex in the recent years, last 10 years in fact, have systematically withdrawn any
funding that they did give for TfL services.
We've got a really good example in Loudoun, the 167 which is a key service used to run
from Ilford right through to Loudoun, right through to Deppen Station.
But because Essex County Council withdrew their subsidy, which they may well have had
reasons to do, TfL then said well we're only going to pay for it to run to
Loughton and to be fair I couldn't disagree with him. I wasn't happy
with the decision but if our own County Council didn't think the continuation of
the bus service between Loughton and Depton was a priority, why should TfL?
No need to respond to that of course.
It's not your reason.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:32:15
It understands for the Chancellor.
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 1:32:24
Chairman, the County Council has to make decisions based upon the usage of busses and of course
what the subsidies are that we have at the time.
And of course we have to make some very tough decisions as we have this year with regards
to grants on busses.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:32:36
Thank you. So have any members got any other points on this area? So no, we'll move on
to point seven, which is impacts of new development over the next 10 to 15 years. And I'll go
Cllr Les Burrows - 1:32:50
to Councillor Burrows. Thank you very much, Chairman. Can TFL outline any proposals to
deal with the increasing demand for services linked to the planning development in this
Transport for London - 1:33:02
area in our area. So this is a little bit outside of my realm but generally
speaking when you have planning permissions for developments a part of
that is the transport infrastructure to support the number of people going in
and the way that generally works is either the developer will pay an amount
of money to the local authority to provide the transport infrastructure so if it's
within sort of TFL's jurisdiction, sort of like London Borough, whatever, we might say we need X amount of money
and then we will run an additional bus service or we'll put in cycle parking or we need to do whatever we need to do.
So that is usually for the district council, whoever the planning authority is, to agree at that stage. That said,
we are always reviewing our sort of bus network and tube network and tube type tabling because obviously we need to future -proof for the demand
that comes in because there will be people using our services from outside of the sort
of 33 London boroughs where we don't have that persuasion.
But outside of matching the demand, there's not much influence that I'm aware of we would have
and it'd be more for at the planning stage and the sort of whoever the local authority is
that grants planning permission.
Thank you for that.
Cllr Les Burrows - 1:34:22
Can Epine Station and the central line handle future demand at this point?
Transport for London - 1:34:27
So the upgraded trains for more reliable service should then allow for more people to use our
services and then obviously the lobbying case for us is going forward is we'd want new trains
on that service which would then provide for new signalling which will require for more
trains to be run so that'll increase our capacity. Thank you so many committee
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:34:51
members on that? Okay Councillor Isby. Thank you again chairman. So it's just
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:34:55
two points if you wouldn't mind enlightening us please.
So one in Chigwell we have two rather large allocated sites in our
local plan with one with 160 odd units and then another one which is for
90 -odd residential units, and then two other more speculative developments of 200 -plus
homes.
So the estimates lie somewhere between Chigua as a parish, which is existing 16 ,000 patients,
and we have two central line stations currently both along the loop.
Projections are somewhere between 2 ,000 to 3 ,000 extra residents within the area.
So I wonder if there is any forecasting which TfL does at the moment to help
structure what future provision of services is going to be like. So that's
question one. And question two is how does Epping Forest and all of the
stations that serve us on the central line, how does impact of future
development compare against some of the three London boroughs that you serve?
i .e. do you have discussions about some of the high -rise blocks that get put up in
Tower Hamlets for instance or Newham or Redbridge and model and adapt your
services along those parts of London because I think in Epping Forest we you
know we don't get that same level of discussion so I wonder what kind of from
Transport for London - 1:36:28
a process point of view what happens on that side. Thank you. So I'll answer the
with borough planning teams and regen teams, and we would contribute to their master planning
or their town planning, what they're planning to do, to make sure that the transport provision
supports that.
Because a lot of the central London boroughs, their town centres are basically built around
tube stations or bus stations, so that we need to then be able to run the services provided
or ensure that their developments don't hinder us running our services.
We also then share what future plans are so the boroughs will tell us we're doing
this over the next five, ten years or these are the planning permissions that
are going in because then we will as the Transport Authority need to comment on
the planning permission so we would then as I was saying earlier when it comes to
the transport element then it'll be for us to make comment on whether we believe
the current transport provision would support that development or whether we
require a financial contribution or a change in design or whatever it is,
whatever it is for that. I don't know how it works with the sort of district
councils so I'm making, I might be wrong with this but I'm making a leap but I
imagine if there's anything that's around our infrastructure and there's
planning going in then we'll be invited to comment and then we'd look at that
and we would comment on that.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:38:02
That is really interesting actually because I think you also gave us a bit of an insight
on that process last time round. If for example as the Transport Authority you are commenting
on a really large volume application, what happens to the funds? We have a similar initiative
where the developer puts in a section 106 contribution. That goes into a central pot
within the district and it gets filtered out across for you know qualifying proposals projects etc etc.
So what happens to the transport levy that you guys you know presumably are consultees on,
what happens if the developer makes a sizeable contribution, where does that money go, is that
is that retained within the area from where the development has taken place or again does that
go into the central pot and then gets filtered out onto the Piccadilly line or you know other TfL
Transport for London - 1:38:54
So, yeah, again, it's a little bit outside of my realm of expertise, but from my understanding,
the planning authority will get the 106, so it wouldn't come to us.
So it would go to whatever, borough X, as it were, and we would say we need this much
to put in.
So, whether it's road infrastructure or if it's running a bus service or if it's putting
in a cycle lane and then we would ask for them to use that 106 to pay towards whatever
it is that is required.
Can I pass over to Matt to come in a bit more on that? Thank you.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:39:29
Matt Winslow - 1:39:32
Yes, so I was listening with interest there because my role is the Service Director for
Planning at Epping Forest, so I was interested to hear some of the answers there. I think
just to provide a bit of context,
first to the first question,
we've got to remember that the planning system in London
is different to the planning system in Essex.
And just to help really that the mayor of London
is the regional planning body for London
and we don't have a regional planning body
out here just yet.
So when the mayor is going through the,
or when the general, when the Greater London Authority
is going through the process of working out how much growth needs to go across the London
boroughs. The Mayor is setting through the London plan how much growth each of those
London boroughs is going to take and they can also say well actually around certain
railway stations or tube stations or public transport networks the London borough is going
have to concentrate development to a certain scale. So Transport for London
should, as the Transport Authority for London, have a fair idea how demand is
going to be managed as part of their separate transport planning
processes. So there's a bit more of an integrated system, planning system, that
happens in London that doesn't necessarily happen at the moment
outside the London and metropolitan areas. Obviously that will change with
the devolution and local government review
in the areas outside London.
But I will take an action as well,
in chair in respects of the question raised,
just to make sure Transport for London
is consulted on applications
around the central line stations.
Because I must admit, I don't actually know
if you're a statutory consultee in those circumstances.
You are inside London,
but that's something which we can cheque.
and that's if you're not then that's something we can make add you to if
you're not. In terms of section 106 and this is again just to provide some
assurance to the place scrutiny committee Transport for London could in
theory request money for expenditure in around stations and on the central line.
It's up to us as the planning authority to be prescriptive so to ensure that
those funds don't just get lost in a melting pot and be spent outside of Epping Forest
District. We do have to ensure we meet the legal test for every Section 106 contribution
we ask for and that includes to ensuring that they're relatable to the development that's
paying the Section 106 contribution and that they are actually mitigating a harm that that
development's otherwise causing. So if we're trying to argue or if Transport for London
are suggesting to us that demand is going to go up as a result of a development nearby,
then we have to be assured as the planning authority that we can tie down a contribution
to that purpose. And you're quite right, the funds are held by us unless they're held by
the public transport authority, which for us would be the county council or another
body.
Thank you, Chairman. Sorry to prolong the debate, but I'm really, really grateful to
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:42:59
Mr Winslow for his comments.
I do think for us as a planning authority,
whilst we are still in existence for the next two years,
I do think it's absolutely essential
that we do take on board the views of statutory consultees
like TfL in development where actually
there's going to be mitigating harm.
The local health authority, which is the ICB,
is always consulted.
Highways -wise, we always have Essex Highways consulting,
but certainly for the two or three big developments that I know within our
parish, so in Grange Hill at Froghall Lane, opposite, literally opposite Grange Hill
station, I can't remember a report or a comment from TfL on it, I know there was
one from Essex Highways and similarly at the Volvo garage adjacent to Chigwell
station there was no transport consultation on it and same at Chigwell
Nursery, so I think we've missed a little bit of trick on those three really
large -scale developments and maybe as a point for the future and I'll certainly
pick it up with the relevant portfolio holder as well it is something that we
should insist on as a local planning authority. Thank you so Councillor Lyon
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:44:12
is next. Thank you Chairman yeah while we were talking about this I had to think
back to the local plan and I thought well I can't remember but I'm sure that
TfL were consulted in drawing up the local plan and I've actually pulled up
some of the information.
If you don't mind me sort of reiterating it,
it says support for modal shift.
TFL along with Essex County Council and Highways England
supported the local plan commitment to encourage a shift
to public transport, walking and cycling.
And central line capacity, TFL confirmed the capacity
of the central line should not be a barrier
to future housing development within the district.
So it goes on to say other things, but again, at that point where the plan was being drawn
up, TFL consulted, I think from my experience at the sort of individual application stage
that needs to be reinforced and looked at.
But a really important point.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Morgan.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:45:13
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 1:45:16
Thank you, but Mr Winslow has actually answered my question before I answer it, so thank you
very much.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:45:23
Any other members? No, so we'll move over to point eight which is LGR. So I'll pass
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 1:45:31
over to Councillor Sunger for that one. Thank you, Chair. We're almost there. Local
government reorganisation LGR, if you can look in the crystal ball and just tell us,
have TEFO planned to establish the appropriate liaison and partnerships with the new unitary
Transport for London - 1:45:52
authorities? It's probably just gonna be me. In all honesty I look after Essex at
the moment so all of the various different counties and councils and such
it probably make my life a lot easier so I look forward to it. Thank you. Can I just come back?
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 1:46:08
I'll go to Matt first and then you can come back. It's just to elaborate to the committee that only last
Matt Winslow - 1:46:15
Last week actually officers met the chief executive of Transport East which is a sub -national
transport body for the east of England.
One of the things which was articulated there is that Transport East who are effectively
our lobbying membership body for a lot of transport matters that sort of cover the strategic
area, we'll be setting up new working relationships with Transport for London, quite specifically,
as a result of, or prior to local government reorganisation actually happening, because
they realise that the new unitaries need to be equipped with new partnerships that don't
exist at the moment.
Thank you. Councillor Sungga.
Yeah, I just want to add, just to say a big thank you to you for coming here tonight.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 1:47:04
I know we're going to finish up with number nine very shortly, but really you've done
outstanding tonight with a number of questions that have been asked and how you've
battling them away but perhaps something you might want to take back to your
managers perhaps and more team members to come along to assist you. Thank you.
Transport for London - 1:47:26
Nothing going forward is I recognise your key areas of concern so it's
timetabling so I can get someone to explain the process to you and so go
for it you can really scrutinise that with them so I think that probably the
myself. I did want to get you guys in touch with the area manager last time I
came and then conveniently the area manager changed and I've not been able
to sort of facilitate that contact but I'll try and do that going forward.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:47:53
Thanks very much. Any other members on that? Okay so before I do the last point
has anyone got any questions that didn't fit in with one of the themes?
Probably get another hundred of questions but Councillor Risby. It's not
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:48:06
so much a question but more of a comment on what I think you've done a fantastic job
during this meeting because you've allowed a really good debate and if I can go a record
to extend my thanks to Jasmeet for handling the questions so professionally and they would
look forward to a report with some of the answers outstanding.
Thank you. Councillor Rankin.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 1:48:26
Again, I'd like to follow on from Councillor Risby's comments there. Thank you. You've
reassure us so we can reassure our residents and tell them that you know
this time the meeting was a lot more substantial and we got a lot more out of
Transport for London - 1:48:47
it so thank you for that. Yeah thanks for that and I'm always happy to come and
so I'm available an email for any sort of data and information guys need as well.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:48:55
Thanks very much. Councillor Kaufman. It's a very quick one, Chair. One thing that
Cllr Will Kauffman - 1:48:58
springs to mind is last time we had the meeting with you and thank you again for
time tonight to echo that.
We still have the two vacant retail units at
Louson train station, which are not being advertised.
I did look on the various portals.
I'd be delighted to put you in touch with some local
people, if that would be helpful.
It would just be nice for people that when they
arrive at Louson station, they're not presented with
two vacant units.
There's the old Brit Lane bagel place, and I think
it was a florist on the left.
It doesn't fit in any way with what we've been talking about, but if I can facilitate
TFL getting in touch with some local agents, I'm very happy to do so.
Transport for London - 1:49:44
We have a team that looks after our estate and I can see what the situation with the
units are.
It may be that they're still under release and just been vacated or whatever, but yeah,
I can look into it.
Thanks very much.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:49:59
So the last point then is on future liaison.
So that's, can contacts be provided for members
to raise their concerns to TFL with specific contacts
for issues relating to stations in the district?
Transport for London - 1:50:12
Yeah, just send them to me, to be honest.
Send them through and I'll either direct you
to the right person or I'll send you a response.
Thanks very much.
I don't think I've got your email,

8 DATES OF FUTURE MEETINGS

so I'm assuming you're happy for us
to circulate to councillors.
Yeah, that's fine.
Brilliant.
Cllr Joseph Parsons - 1:50:27
Thanks very much. We'll get that circulated.
We'll get that in the members bulletin so members can contact you.
The last one then, could we have written responses to the questions we've raised today?
Brilliant. I think that's the last point.
Thanks so much for coming today to answer all of our questions.
There have been a lot of them, but thanks very much for your time.
Well done, Chair. It was a really good meeting.
Thank you.
So the last point before the meeting closes just the date of our next meeting
so the last place meetings on the 17th of March and thanks, and I'll close the meeting at
five to nine
Cllr Arash Ardakani
District councillor for Loughton Fairmead ward
Loughton Residents Association
View profile Cllr Arash Ardakani
Cllr Tom Bromwich
District councillor for North Weald Bassett ward
Independent
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Cllr Rose Brookes
District councillor for Buckhurst Hill East and Whitebridge ward
Loughton Residents Association
View profile Cllr Rose Brookes
Cllr Les Burrows
District councillor for North Weald Bassett ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Barbara Cohen
District councillor for Buckhurst Hill East and Whitebridge ward
Loughton Residents Association
View profile Cllr Barbara Cohen
Cllr Will Kauffman
District councillor for Loughton Fairmead ward
Loughton Residents Association
View profile Cllr Will Kauffman
Laura Kirman
Democratic Services Officer
Epping Forest District Council
View profile Laura Kirman
Cllr Alan Lion
District councillor for Grange Hill ward
Conservative Party
View profile Cllr Alan Lion
Cllr Lisa Morgan
District councillor for Grange Hill ward
Independent
View profile Cllr Lisa Morgan
Cllr Stephen Murray
District councillor for Loughton Roding ward
Independent
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Cllr Chidi Nweke
District councillor for Loughton Roding ward
Loughton Residents Association
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Cllr Joseph Parsons
District councillor for Waltham Abbey West ward
Conservative Party
View profile Cllr Joseph Parsons
Cllr Sheree Rackham
District councillor for Loughton Roding ward
Loughton Residents Association
View profile Cllr Sheree Rackham
Cllr Kaz Rizvi
District councillor for Chigwell with Lambourne ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Darshan Sunger
District councillor for Chigwell with Lambourne ward
Conservative Party
View profile Cllr Darshan Sunger
Cllr Chris Whitbread
District councillor for Roydon and Lower Nazeing ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Janet Whitehouse
District councillor for Epping East ward
Liberal Democrats
View profile Cllr Janet Whitehouse
Matt Winslow
Planning Director
Epping Forest District Council
View profile Matt Winslow