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Council
Thursday, 22nd October 2026 at 7:00pm

 
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  7. Cllr Ken Williamson
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  66. Gary Woodhall
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  73. Cllr Alan Lion
  74. Barbara Beardwell
  75. Cllr Alan Lion
  76. Cllr Jon Whitehouse
  77. Cllr Alan Lion
  78. Barbara Beardwell
  79. Cllr Alan Lion
  80. Cllr Stephen Murray
  81. Cllr Alan Lion
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  84. Cllr Jaymey McIvor
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Ladies and gentlemen, will you please be upstanding for your Chairman of Council, Councillor Alan
Lyon.
Good evening, members. Please be seated.

1 Webcasting Introduction

Cllr Alan Lion - 0:00:24
Before I start, I would like to say that the wheels on my chair have been replaced and
it makes it much easier to move.
Anyway, good evening everybody and I'd like to begin by saying,
oh, we haven't got anybody in the gallery, so I don't need to say that.
One person?
Okay, I can't see them from here.
Anyway, before we begin, I'd like to remind all members of the importance of maintaining respect,
courtesy and constructive dialogue at all times.
Everyone has the right to be heard without unnecessary interruption.
I therefore ask members to avoid private conversations and other distractions whilst debate is taking
place and to show consideration for colleagues and officers addressing the Chamber.
Please wait to be called before speaking.
Direct remarks through the Chairman.
Listen respectfully for differing views.
Keep contributions focused on the agenda item being discussed.
Members, as you can see, we have a very full agenda this evening. I am mindful that many
of the items before us require full and proper discussion. However, should our meeting extend
beyond 10pm, I will seek your agreement to adjourn the meeting and reconvene on Thursday
29th October to complete the remaining business. So let's hope we can conclude the meeting
this evening.
So item 1, Councillors, by our agenda is webcast and the webcasting introduction may ask Gary
Woodall to read the webcasting introduction.
Thank you, Chairman.
Gary Woodhall - 0:02:13
The Chairman would like to remind everyone that this meeting will be filmed live or recorded
and uploaded to the internet and will be capable of repeated viewing.
Therefore, by participating in this meeting, you are consenting to being filmed and to
possible use of those images and sound recordings. If any public speakers on Microsoft Teams
do not wish to have their image captured, they should ensure that their video setting
throughout the meeting is turned off and set to audio only. Members and public speakers
are reminded to turn on their microphones before speaking and turn them off when they
have finished. Thank you, Chairman.

2 Apologies for Absence

Cllr Alan Lion - 0:02:51
Thank you. Item 2 on the agenda is apologies for absence. Gary, do we have any apologies
for absence?
Gary Woodhall - 0:02:56
Thank you, Chairman. I have apologies from Councillors Enwetke, Gupta and Brooks.
Councillor Whitehouse.
And can I give Councillor Shrews apologies for lateness, please, Chair.
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 0:03:09
Any other apologies? Councillor Bailão.
Councillor Richard Morgan.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:03:14
Apologies for lateness for Councillor Spero.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 0:03:20
Okay.
That's it.
Anything else?
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:03:26
Okay.

3 Declarations of Interest

So, Item 3 on the agenda are declarations of interest.
Do any members need to declare an interest before our meeting this evening?
Okay.

4 Minutes

Item 4 on our agenda is to approve the minutes from our meeting held on the 23rd of July,
which you will find on pages 10 to 33 of our agenda.
Members, may I now sign these minutes as a true record of the meeting?
Thank you.

5 Announcements

Item 5 on our agenda is my announcements.
And since our last meeting in July, I have attended more than 30 events across the district.
Highlights include several play in the park sessions supported by our community champions,
and meeting the Youth Council Colville, who have already formed a strong and enthusiastic team.
I was pleased to attend their Get Active Awards and their Speed Meeting with MP Alex Burkhart.
I represented the district at the High Sheriff of Essex Justice Service,
and attended a number of events organised by the West Essex Inclusion Project,
led by our disability engagement officer, Emily Stevens.
These provide valuable opportunities for children with disabilities and additional needs, including
activities at the uniquely adapted train carriage at Upshire Primary Foundation School.
Community events continue to thrive across the district, from judging classes at the
great community pet fair in Waltham Abbey, to joining families at the Teddy Bears picnic
organised by Epping Forest Community Care.
It has been wonderful to see so many residents coming together.
I was also delighted to attend the preview launch for the remarkable Saxon gold ring
discovered by local detectionist Dean Young, as well as the Essex Heritage Trust AGM, and
the presentation of the King's Award at Lanwood Heights Care Home with the Lord Lieutenant.
I have continued my visits to our Town and Parish Councils and was pleased to see the
local Council liaison meeting was so well attended.
Unfortunately, despite our valiant efforts, Epping Town Council narrowly overtook us in
the last round of the P 'Tanc match.
The Lions on the Loose auction raised £142 ,000 for good causes and more recently I attended
Black History Month event at the Civic offices, which was a tremendous success and a fitting
celebration of our diverse community.
These events have once again demonstrated the strength, generosity and community spirit
that exists throughout Heppin Forest, and I thank everyone involved for their hard work
and dedication.
Members, I have one further matter.
I understand that Councillor Shaw would like to address the Council.
Councillor Shaw.
Cllr Geoff Shaw - 0:06:45
Thank you, Chairman.
Can you stand?
Sorry, you may recall.
You need to stand.
Oh, sorry.
Thank you.
Sorry, I'm still learning.
This, following last meeting, there were two complaints regarding my conduct to the Council
at the meeting on the 25th of July—23rd of July, and I wish to give my formal apologies.
You may recall that I was told by the Chair that I should sit down and not continue my
questions regarding QALYES.
I wanted to ask about four questions and I was told I had to sit down after the first
one.
Councillor Wickbred then stood up and responded to one of my questions with a statement that
I believe is misleading.
With my microphone switched off, I gave a little bit of an outburst, which I regret,
and I accept was totally inappropriate, which I thought being under my breath with my phone
switched off, it wouldn't be heard. Anyway, I've now read the constitution and I understand
some of the rules of this Chamber and I would like to give you my assurances that my conduct
in future will meet the high standards of the Councillors. So, I repeat, please accept
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:08:13
my apologies for the offence caused. Councillors say thank you.
Okay.
Item 6 on our agenda are public questions.

6 Public Questions (If Any)

We have received requests from four members of the public to address the Council tonight.
The questions submitted can be found on the supplementary agenda.
Our first public question is from Selina Jeffcoat.
I ask Selina Jepko to stand and ask her question.
Is she in the Chamber?
Mr Chair, I don't think she's online either.
Okay.
Gary Woodhall - 0:08:50
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:08:53
So I think we will take her question as read and provide a written answer.
The next question we have is for Mr. Eaves.
Gary Woodhall - 0:09:13
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:09:21
forecasting law.
We then have Mr. Ease, and Mr. Ease doesn't seem to be in the Chamber.
No?
Gary Woodhall - 0:09:37
Ease, okay, so we'll take his questions, right.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:09:40
And Mr. Heap?
No, Chairman.
Okay.
And the fourth question is Mr. Smith.
He's not online either, Chairman.
Okay, so if we can, unless anybody has any objections, we'll take all those questions
as read and provide written answers.
Agreed.
Okay, thank you very much.
Chairman, can I just ask one question?
The answers can be circulated, of course.
Chairman.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:10:14
Yeah, Councillor Murray.
I'm only waiting to be standing up as Vice -Chairman because the Chairman hadn't called me.
I won't stand up until I am called.
Do we have to wait for the minutes to get the answers to those questions?
We have already had the questions tabled tonight in front of us as part of the agenda.
I would like to think that the answers which have obviously been prepared could be sent
out separately to the minutes.
Yes, they will form part of the minutes, but it is normally a considerable, you know, because
of work process.
Thank you, Councillor Murray. We can certainly consider getting those out prior to the minutes
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:10:52
being published.
Thank you very much, Chairman.

7 Questions By Members Under Notice

Okay. So let's move on. We are now on to Item 7 on the agenda. Questions by members under
notice. So we have questions from Councillor Rackham, Councillor Morgan, Councillor James
Small, Councillor Paul Callihan and Councillor James Abbott. So, Councillor Rackham, can
I ask you to read your question?
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:11:30
Microphone's off.
Your microphone's off.
Thank you.
This is my first question to the Leader.
With local government reorganisation no longer proceeding within Epping Forest,
please could you advise how many staff hours have been spent preparing for the proposed
reorganisation and how many district council employees have been involved in this work?
In addition, I would be grateful if you could provide where available an estimate of the
associated costs incurred by the council in relation to officer time, consultancy support
and any other resources allocated to this project.
Thank you, that's question one.
Thank you, Councillor McPheron.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 0:12:38
Thank you, Councillor Rackham.
Obviously, at the present time,
local government reorganisation is paused
until we hear further from the government.
The Council's participation in local government reorganisation
has required a significant commitment
of both officer and organisational capacity. The associated cost fall broadly into three
categories. Direct cost, including expenditure on additional staffing, specialist advice
and external support. Indirect cost, arising from officer time being redirected from other
corporate priorities to support LGR activity. And opportunity cost, where progress on transformation
programmes such as initiatives and investments in service improvements and local priorities
has been delayed or deferred.
The opportunity cost is potentially the most significant of these categories.
However, neither opportunity cost nor the indirect cost of officer time can be quantified
with certainty as the Council does not operate a formal time recording system.
A wide range of officers have contributed to the LGR programme to date.
During the design phase, activity was concentrated primarily within the Council's leadership
team and project management functions.
As the programme began to move into implementation involvement, it broadened across the organisation.
However, implementation activity remained at an early stage and the impact on the wider
service areas was therefore relatively limited at that point.
The Council has, however, been able to quantify the direct cost attributable specifically
to Epping Forest at this stage.
These amount to approximately $230 ,000.
In addition, there will be further costs associated with Essex -wide activity, including the Greater
Essex Programme Office and wider external support arrangements.
These costs have not yet been fully apportioned between the participating authorities and
therefore cannot currently be quantified by Epping Forest.
The Council is working collaboratively with partners across Essex to coordinate a submission
to Government seeking reimbursement of LGR -related expenditure. However, Government has not provided
any firm commitment that either direct cost or wider indirect opportunity cost will be
reimbursed. Thank you.
Thank you. And Councillor Rackham, you have a second question.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 0:15:24
I was in the office of Connected Real, rather than the original.
Question number two.
I sit on standards and I wondered basically what the typical time scale
is for the monitoring officer to investigate and determine a complaint
against an elected counsellor.
And in addition, could you confirm whether the council has a target timeframe
for concluding investigations into complaints against elected councillors, how complainants
and councillors who are subject to the complaint are kept informed of progress throughout the
investigation process, the number of complaints investigated during the last three years,
the total cost incurred by the Council in undertaking these investigations, including
officer time, legal advice, external investigations, hearing panel costs and any other associated
expenditure. And lastly, whether the Council records and reports these costs, and if so,
whether this information can be made publicly available.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Woodruff.
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 0:16:36
Thank you again, Councillor Rackham. This would be an answer that is shared with the
Chairman of the Standards Committee. But all Councillor's complaints are considered in
accordance with the Council's Standards Arrangements approved by the Standards Committee, which
set out the procedure to be followed when a complaint is received, including notification
at the different stages of action taken, strokes, next steps to the parties involved.
The parties are also kept informed individually as to the progress of a complaint by the monetary
officer who will answer any queries on an individual basis.
It is difficult to advise as to a typical timescale as all complaints are different.
The time taken to investigate a complaint will depend on the subject matter and the
complexity of the complaint and the number of witnesses and overall evidence to be considered,
including the timeliness of responses by the parties involved.
The majority of complaints received are disposed of informally by way of action short of investigation.
Four complaints have been investigated in the last three years.
These complaints were investigated by external investigators at a total cost of £21 ,466.
These payments are published as part of the Council's open data.
The indirect cost of officer time cannot be quantified with certainty as the Council does
not operate a formal time recording system.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question we have is from Councillor Lisa Morgan.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:18:12
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 0:18:17
Thank you very much, Chair. This is for the Leader, or actually, Ken Williamson, if he
would like to answer. In the light of Ken Williams seeking endorsement from Cabinet
last week for EFDC to not only have one plan, to only have one planning committee, would
you kindly inform us of the full details of the review they promised this Council when
we started a trial of two planning committees, which we still have in place at present. Then
in October last year, Councillor Williamson assured this Council again that a proper review
would take place. Please would either Councillor Williamson or the leader of the Council tell
us where this information could be found and when the review took place. Also, having one
planning committee for EFDC is not and should not be one for one
Councillor to decide and hide behind cabinet in doing so. Especially
when it appears it has not followed through with its original promise
and a full and comprehensive review. Both Councillors and residents we
represent deserve this review to be before any discussions even
discussed. Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor Morgan. Councillor Williams, you may remain seated.
Cllr Ken Williamson - 0:19:26
I will stand for the dignity of the meeting. Thank you, Chair. Thank you,
Councillor Morgan for your two -part question, one regarding the number of planning committees
and the other about the review following previous changes to the planning committees. Dealing
with the number of planning committees and possibly reducing this to one committee, this
was a proposal put forward by the Planning Advisory Service in their original advice.
As a Council, we decided that this was a step too far at that juncture and we debated and
made decisions to have two committees, A and B. These changes have been written into the
constitution. Any further change would also need to be debated, decided and written into
the constitution. The change to one committee was incorporated into the cabinet paper as
it was a PAS recommendation. It may well be prudent to have just one committee in the
future, but this is not a decision I am empowered to make and would have to be decided by Council.
To be clear to all Councillors and residents, decisions are made, not suggested, and they
are made in line with the Constitution.
Moving on to your other point about the review, I have made it clear at several meetings that
between implementation and the expiry of the nine months, the Government had made it abundantly
clear that there would be widespread changes to the planning system in England.
These have indeed come into being and we believe there are others in the pipeline.
These changes are totally outside our control.
If any member wishes to raise the review with one of the scrutiny committees,
I would be happy to attend and reiterate the case that any review has been overtaken
by events.
It may be timely to remind ourselves that before the changes, newly elected
Councillors automatically sat on the appropriate area planning committee with little or sometimes
no training whatsoever and were objecting to schemes without material planning considerations
of voting on what they thought their residents wanted.
This is one of the reasons we are currently designated.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:21:45
Okay, we have a further question now from Councillor Small.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr James Small - 0:21:52
At the last community scrutiny meeting on 29 September, of which I'm a committee member,
I raised two housing -related issues.
I will not go into full details on them, just a brief introduction.
One is a domestic violence victim was put into Norway House with a baby, sharing a site
with single men who were wandering around.
Currently, the Council is trying to dump her in cheaper private accommodation miles away
in Harlow, that's from our support network.
having tried before to dump her in Ilford,
rather than considering her for social housing.
The other is a medical banding case for rehousing.
I had to, for several weeks, put up an almighty fight
to get her put into the correct banding
and to get it back dated.
As clearly it was done wrong the past 18 months,
during this whole battle, I faced resistance
for a clinical justification for the original banding
and also resistant to be put in touch
with the medical assessors who astonishingly decided to put her in the same category as
able -bodied General Knees individuals. She is literally housebound and had I not intervened
she would have remained rotting on the waiting list in the General Knees category.
Both these vulnerable individuals are young British mothers with strong local links who
basically have been told there's no housing in the district, that there is a big waiting
list, a housing crisis. I do appreciate like many councils we do indeed have a housing
crisis, but if a cup is full of water, do you keep more and more water in?
On this note, why are foreign nationals and refugees getting social housing in the district?
Why has a migrant and refugee charity been invited into the civic centre each week to
give advice on housing when we have a housing crisis?
I also understand that charity has received direct funding from this Council over the
last few years.
Through inviting in and partnering with this charity into the civic centre, does it not
make up in Forest District a de facto council sanctuary? Why is it acceptable for vulnerable
British people with local links, like the two cases I highlighted, to be put to the
bottom of the queue, to have them crying on my shoulder whilst you somehow find housing
for foreign nationals? I know what I have raised is an unspoken topic, taboo even, for
the last few decades and something you are absolutely not used to being challenged on
in this Chamber. But Reform UK wants to put the British people first again for months,
something that's not happened for decades.
I do not want to see vulnerable British people
crying on my shoulder in this district over housing
when somehow this authority finds social housing
in particular for our nationals.
Has this council got its priorities wrong?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Patel.
Thank you, Chair.
Can I have your phone?
Cllr Smruti Patel - 0:24:29
Microphone.
My phone, yes.
Sorry, I'm just a bit shaky from some bad news earlier.
Thank you, Chairman, and I thank the Councillor for his question. Firstly, I absolutely recognise
the seriousness of the individual circumstances described. Cases involving domestic abuse,
homelessness or significant medical needs can be extremely distressing. And where someone
believes a housing decision is wrong, there are established rights of review. I must,
however, take issue with the language used, nobody in this Council's care is being dumped.
These are residents often at the hardest point in their lives and they deserve dignity in
how we house them and how we speak about them in this Chamber. For that reason, I will not
discuss the private circumstances of the two women in a meeting that is being webcast.
They have not consented to that
and a survivor of domestic abuse
should never find her situation
used to make a political point like this.
Having said that,
I did have a much harsher response
but I think I will refrain from that.
Considering my own...
However, I do want to correct
one important suggestion in the question.
The Council does not place British residents
at the top of the list.
the bottom of the housing queue in favour of refugees or foreign nationals. The Council
must operate within the Housing Act 1996, the Homelessness Reduction Act 2017 and our
own published housing allocation scheme 2022 -2027 which specifically talks about seven -year
residency for general allocations. The law requires us first to establish whether somebody
is eligible for housing assistance.
There are specific statutory rules governing eligibility
for people from abroad.
Where somebody is eligible, their housing priority
is then determined by their housing need and circumstances,
not simply by their nationality.
The Housing Act requires councils to give reasonable
preference to particular groups, including people who are
homeless, those living in an unsatisfactory housing,
people who need to move on medical or welfare grounds,
and those who would suffer hardship
if they could not move to a particular area.
It is also important to distinguish homelessness assistance
from the allocation of a council home.
Being accepted as homeless does not automatically mean
someone receives social housing.
Our own allocation scheme allows the council
to discharge its main homelessness duty
through either settled social housing
or suitable private rented accommodation,
depending on the circumstances and availability.
So if concerns exist about a particular individual's assessment,
including medical priority or the suitability of accommodation,
those decisions can and should be challenged
through the appropriate review process.
But the fundamental principle is clear.
We apply the law to our allocation scheme consistently.
Eligible applicants are assessed according to their circumstances and housing need.
We do not operate different housing queues based on nationality.
That is the fair, lawful and consistent approach I would expect this Council to continue taking.
Finally, on this matter, I am aware that in undertaking their role,
ward councillors come across housing matters which can be complex. As such, senior officers
have always and will continue to be available to provide advice. You also ask why a refugee support
charity has been invited to provide advice from the civic offices each week. Integration support
works with refugees and asylum seekers across West Essex, including residents in the Epping Forest.
The organisation, which receives funding from the Home Office, has provided support through
the Council's Community Hub since the arrival of refugees from Ukraine. Its support covers
a wide range of practical issues, including settling into and navigating life in the UK,
employment and volunteering, digital support, health and wellbeing, education and housing -related
advice.
The community hub at the civic offices is an inclusive space where charities and other
organisations provide specialist advice and support to district residents with a broad
range of needs.
Integration support provides an appointment -only service from the hub as part of its wider
offer.
As with all organisations providing services through the community hub, appropriate due
diligence is undertaken to ensure that the support offered is suitable and fit for purpose.
Integration support is subject to the same arrangements as all the other organisations.
Thank you, Chairman.
Thank you. We now have a further question from...
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:29:46
Can you repeat the question?
No, I don't believe so.
Is there an opportunity to come back?
To come back, no.
Sorry, not at this stage.
Okay, we have a question from Councillor Paul Callihan.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Paul Kelleher - 0:30:08
Appreciate it.
This question is to the Environment and Regulatory Portfolio Holder.
Flight tipping and roadside litter continue to blight Waltham Abbey, particularly on our
residential estates and along roads such as Dalin Way, where litter discarded from passing
vehicles has become a persistent problem.
How many incidents of flight tipping have been recorded in Waltham Abbey over the past
12 months, and how many have resulted in successful enforcement action?
And what further measures is the Council taking to tackle this problem?
Has the Council also considered introducing camera -based enforcement technology to identify
and penalise those responsible for littering from moving vehicles?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Sunga.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:31:03
Thank you Chairman and thank you Paul, Councillor Paul Keller for your question.
Fly tipping and littering are issues that we take very seriously. In fact, I was at
the roundtable discussion only yesterday at Westminster Palace where we discussed a number
of ways to tackle a criminal activity that is happening throughout the country. We shared
evidence of the impact of large -scale flight -tippling and waste crime across the country, identified
barriers to effective enforcement and site clearance, considered the case of a dedicated
national approach to tackling waste crime, discussed options for supporting the remediation
of abandoned waste sites, agreed key messages to communicate to government, established
their basis for continued cross -sector collaboration on the issue. My portfolio hold report focuses
on the government's waste crime strategy and how we as a council propose to take it forward.
I can advise that between the 1st of November 2025 and the 21st of October 2026, which is
yesterday, a total number of 834 flight -taking incidences were recorded within the Waltham
Abbey area alone. Of these, 173 cases were referred to Environmental Enforcement Officers
for investigation. During the period, enforcement activity resulted in six penalty fixed notices
being issued for flight -tipping offences, six penalty notices for littering offences,
six fixed penalty notices for failure to provide waste transfer notes, 22 waste notices, five
community protection warnings and three community protection notices.
Additionally, three prosecutions have been referred to the breaches of community protection
notices and two joint prosecutions are progressing in relation to fly -tipping and waste duty
of care offences. It is important to recognise that tackling fly -tipping involves more than
simply responding to individual incidences. The Council's enforcement activity also
targets the wider cause of environmental crime, including poor waste management, illegal waste
carriers, breaches of waste duty of care requirements and irresponsible waste disposal by both households
patrols and businesses. The Council continues to take a proactive approach across the district
through a range of measures, including joint working between waste services, housing and
enforcement teams, the introduction of new technology and case management systems, improved
flight tip clearance processes, the use of enforcement signage, targeted patrols funded
through the police, the fire and crime commissioner, vehicle seizures linked to unlawful waste
activities and greater use of intelligence to identify and target the hotspot locations
that you mentioned. Turning specifically to Dowding Way, only two fly tipping incidents
have been reported during the period in question. Both at the entrance to the private field,
No literary reports have been received from the public or identified by our street cleansing
teams at this location during the same period.
In relation to camera -based enforcement technology, the Council is exploring the use of AI -enabled
CCTV systems.
CCTV can be a highly effective tool at known flying tipping hotspots and has previously
helped identify offenders and support enforcement action. And I can vouch for that because in
my own ward behind Brookmuse, we had two instances where the flight tippers were caught red -handed
and fines were issued and they had to pay the £500 each. Enforcing littering offences
from moving vehicles can present practical challenges, but we are committed to exploring
all available tools for enforcement. The Council remains committed to working with residents,
businesses and partner organisations to reduce fly -tipping and littering. We will continue
to explore innovative approaches that help prevent offending, improve detection and protect
our local environment. Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:35:57
Thank you. And we have a final question from Councillor James Abbott.
Cllr James Abbott - 0:36:03
Thank you, Chair. Working alongside the Warlam Abbey Town Council, Epping Forest District
Council and our local neighbourhood policing team, the newly formed Warlam Abbey Crime
and Community Safety Group have identified a number of practical improvements to help
tackle crime and antisocial behaviour in the Warlam Abbey Town Centre. These include improvements
to street lighting, CCTV provision, parking enforcement, pedestrian safety and measures
to prevent unauthorised vehicles access to the Market Square. Will the Cabinet Member
commit to supporting the delivery of these improvements and importantly appoint a lead
officer to work directly with the Town Council, Essex Police and Essex Highways to coordinate
their implementation? Thank you.
Councillor Swinburne.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 0:36:50
I am actually quite disappointed, Chairman, if I have to say that the question that has
come from the Member here is actually a county councillor himself. Given his role as a county
councillor in improving country -wide services, including higher -risk environments, I hope
that you have raised these issues at county level as well. But I am here to support as
a portfolio holder in the District.
I welcome the proactive work being undertaken by the Waltham Abbey Town Council, Essex Police,
Epping Forest District Council and other partners to identify practical measures that would
to help tackle crime and antisocial behaviour within the Waltham Abbey Town Centre.
The Service Managers recently carried out site visits with Councillors and partners,
has a multi -agency approach and has identified some key issues and opportunities for improvement,
including road signs, pedestrian safety, parking enforcement, CCTV coverage, concerns relating
to violence against women and girls, and environmental issues such as flight tipping.
Has environmental visual audit been completed, the findings of which will help inform and
prioritise future improvement work across the area? The Council supports this collaboration
approach. The priorities identified align well with those of the Community Safety Partnership
and the wider work already underway in Waltham Abbey. The Community Resilience Team is actively
involved in these discussions, and the Antisocial Behaviour Team Manager will be the lead officer
for this work, working alongside the Town Council, Essex Police, Essex Highways and
other relevant partners to coordinate activity and support delivery where appropriate.
Whilst I am happy to commit the Council's support to progressing these improvements,
it is important to recognise that some proposals, such as enhancement to CCT infrastructure
lighting and highway measures will be subject to funding availability, partner agreement
and the relevant approval processes. The Council will continue to explore external funding
opportunities with partners where appropriate, but funding cannot be guaranteed. Through
continued partnership work, I am confident that we can build on the positive work already
undertaken to make Waltham Abbey an even safer and more welcoming place for residents
and businesses and visitors.
Thank you, Chairman.
Thank you very much.
Members, we now go on to item 8 on our agenda.

8 Reports from the Leader & Members of the Cabinet

Cllr Alan Lion - 0:39:39
It's reports from the Leader and members of the Cabinet.
Written reports can be found on pages 34 to 48 of our agenda.
Councillor Whitby, Leader of the Council, would you like to present your report?
Thanks, Chairman.
Very short this evening.
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 0:39:54
Obviously, like yourself, I've attended a number of different meetings, including the
very productive Black History Month two satis ago, which I found really interesting, and
it was good to see the community coming together in such a positive way, with representation
from the local police force and generally really well received, I felt, by everyone
who attended.
Obviously, this is a time of year when we come through the summer where we start to
have a number of meetings with towns and parishes over a number of issues, which have been quite
productive.
We're having further discussions with councils around the glasshouse industry and other factors.
Of course, I meet on a regular basis with those parish councils from across the district.
Ongoing, we have meetings in the weeks ahead around local government reorganisation.
now it's been paused and our transformation may lock, and we will be bringing reports
back to the Council in due course.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:41:00
Any other Cabinet members would like to add any verbal reports to their written reports?
No?
We don't have any further items on that agenda item.

9 Questions by Members Without Notice

So moving on, members, item 9 on the agenda is questions without notice.
I will allow the usual 30 minutes for this item.
May I ask those wishing to speak to clearly indicate their intention by raising their
hands?
We've got lots of hands.
And can I ask that you are brief to the point when asking your question?
If you have more than one question, your second question may be asked after other councillors
have spoken, if we have time remaining.
That way everyone who wishes to speak has a chance.
Thank you.
So who have we got?
Councillor Murray.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 0:41:57
Arup has been appointed by EFDC and Harlow Council as regards to government -inspired review of our Greenbelt.
They are currently undertaking stage 1 consultation and methodology work.
Arup is also reported locally, and I'm getting a lot of reports as a local member, as acting
as a PE3 partnership partner for a development proposal for a greenbelt site in Chitwell
and Buckers Hill, with the intention of arguing that the site falls within the greybelt.
Is there any reason to be concerned about this apparent, and I stress the word apparent,
class of interests.
Councillor Williamson.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Councillor Murray.
Cllr Ken Williamson - 0:42:48
Yeah, my inbox is filling as we speak on this.
It's important to say the stage one consultation
ended today and I hope all of the people that,
I think they're all saying the same point pretty much.
To make it perfectly clear,
the stage one is not actually assessing
any particular sites. When it comes to the Arup situation, Arup's have been our Greenbelt
advisors since the early days of the local plan. It doesn't give us any comfort to say
we were there first, but we have appointed Arup's over a number of years on these sort
items and this one is a joint consultation with Barlow.
We have no guidance or say over who any applicant uses as their consultant.
I agree it's not a good look, but the applicant has got a hint with it on that basis.
But I would say that Arup's are a worldwide consultancy firm.
They're an enormous firm.
I did actually have an interview with them once, but fortunately stayed where I was.
It is a massive organisation.
I'm sure that they can put in place Chinese walls or whatever the current phrase is to
make sure that the advice is given.
But I agree, it's not a good look, but the applicant decided to go down this route, not
us.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Whitehouse.
Councillor WILLIAMSON.
Councillor WYNDHAM.
Thank you.
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 0:44:27
Yes, this is Ron Ford for Councillor Williamson and he'll be aware of the sheer number of
planning applications currently either submitted or in the process of being discussed, including
the five pre -applications he mentions in his report.
I am getting a bit concerned that the timetable for submission and determination of some of
these very substantial planning applications is running ahead of the timetable for implementation
of community infrastructure levy and updating of our infrastructure delivery plan. I just
wonder if you could say a bit more about, you know, what the Council is doing to make
sure that doesn't happen in as much as we can, and whether he can update us on the slightly
vague timetable for the CIL in his report. Thank you.
Councillor Williams.
Yes, thank you, Councillor Whitehouse.
Cllr Ken Williamson - 0:45:19
The first consultation came back with lots of queries.
We obviously took them all very seriously and resubmitted, and it looks as though it
is going to be spring next year.
That is out of our hands.
It is a process we have to go through.
I do not know whether Mr Winslow could add anything to that for me.
Thank you.
Councillor Shaw.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Geoff Shaw - 0:45:51
My question is addressed to –
Do you want to add anything to it?
Matt Winslow - 0:46:02
I think just to clarify, Chair, so what Councillor Williamson is talking about in terms of sill
production, so yes, spring next year is what we're looking at in terms of submitting
the CIL for examination with adoption in the summer, and for additional kind of reassurance
in terms of bringing community infrastructure levy in.
We've already started the back office piece of work to enable our systems or buy a new
system so that we can start charging community infrastructure levy, which we've done jointly
as part of the piece of work going on at the moment for building safety levy, which is
part of the government's initiative for building safety.
So that as soon, so obviously the adoption of CIL will have to come back to Council because
it's a Council function to adopt it and bring it into effect.
But we hope that with the advancing of the back office part of the project, that assuming
we get the go -ahead that CIL passes the examination, that we would be able to bring it into effect
next summer.
Thank you.
Okay, sorry, Councillor Shaw.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:47:16
Yes, my question is addressed to Councillor Holly Whitbread.
Cllr Geoff Shaw - 0:47:19
At the last cabinet meeting last week, there was a question from Mrs Jeff Cote, and the
response was in connexion with the Springwood Grove development.
Councillor Holly Whitbread made the following statement.
This is regarding the Springwood Grove development.
The scheme continues to be managed robustly
to ensure effective delivery and to ensure value for money.
There's two statements there.
Councillor Whitbread said it's being managed robustly
for effective delivery.
And the second part was effective value for money.
Now, if we look at delivery, first of all, you may recall that for the last few months
since I was here, we have been told at this meeting that it was—
Sorry, Councillor Shaw, what is the question?
Well, I believe that Councillor Whitbread has totally misled Cabinet and Council by
claiming that the question is I would like her to explain what she means by robustly
managed the delivery of this project and the value for money for this project, because
I believe it is totally misleading. I think everybody here knows it hasn't been robustly
managed.
Thank you. We have your questions.
Cllr Holly Whitbread - 0:48:47
Thank you, Chairman. I stand by the statement I made at Cabinet and I am sure we will discuss
this in full at the Scrutin meeting on 2nd November.
Thank you.
Thank you.
We now have Councillor Lucas.
Thank you.
Cllr Jodie Lucas - 0:49:02
I would like to ask the relevant portfolio holder for an update on the work that's being
done with the town partnerships, obviously particularly in Waltham Abbey.
Given the opportunity and my first opportunity to speak this morning, this evening, sorry,
it's been a long day, around the question that was raised earlier with the support for
particularly there were a few issues raised.
I would like to say that in my experience as a Walthamabie
Councillor in the time that I have had working with EFDC on those matters
has been really effective and I welcome the Essex County Councillors'
involvement now to push that with Essex Highways as well and Essex
County Council.
But yes, I am particularly interested about town partnerships this evening.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chairman and thank you to Councillor Lucas for that question.
Cllr Holly Whitbread - 0:49:48
and the town partnerships have been a success.
Actually, the Wolf and Abby Town Partnership
has been a success for many years,
and you've got a real dedicated group of individuals there
who work for the betterment of the town,
and they're doing fantastic work.
They had a grant from the District Council
to support the King Harold Memorial Restoration.
This is all getting ready for the Norman Millennial Festival
which I believe is next year,
and goes alongside the Bayeux Tapestry
they've got in the library there as well.
So they're doing really fantastic work.
The town partnerships really improving
and coming to life across the district
with the support of the economic development team.
In Epping, I'm proud to be a member
of the Epping Town Partnership.
We had a really successful festival
with a new proms on the green,
which was great to see that back in the town.
And the festival had many different community organisations
and to everyone, save the day for Thursday,
the 19th of November,
because we have got a fashion show right here in the civic offices and we are looking for
models so if anyone's keen to participate that would be brilliant. There's also great
work going on in Nasing where they've received funding for Nasing in Bloom to support and
promote the shopping area in Nasing. Loudton have got a Halloween trail coming up next
week so there's lots going on and we're encouraging those to grow and basically be self -sufficient
as well with their own funding. Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Jamie McIver.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 0:51:18
My question is to Councillor Williamson or to the leader.
Given that the council has a serious problem
when it comes to planning at the moment,
and we're all doing our absolute best to rectify it,
can somebody please explain to me how and why
a planning application of this own authority
was unanimously refused because it doesn't even follow
this authorities own guidance when it comes to planning,
so much so that the committee unanimously opposed it.
Why are we not following our own rules?
Why are we not setting an example?
And how on earth can the people of Onga and Chigwell
have any faith in this authorities ability
to defend the green belt
when our own councils planning applications
do not make it past its own planning committees?
It's a shambles.
How on earth can we rectify this situation urgently?
And how on earth did that application even make it to committee in the first place?
Thank you.
Councillor Williamson.
First, I thank you for the question.
Cllr Ken Williamson - 0:52:21
Thank you, Chair.
First of all, this application had absolutely nothing to do with Greenbelt, had nothing
to do with Onga or any other part of the Greenbelt.
It was an application put forward by this Council.
Well, I think one of the small problems was the delay
in the original designs.
There was an original application which was approved
and then we relooked at it.
I accept it's not a good look,
but at least it went through the process.
It went through a proper process and a decision was made.
As I mentioned earlier,
it has absolutely nothing to do with the green belt.
Thank you.
Councillor Bromwich.
Cllr Tom Bromwich - 0:53:10
Thank you very much, Chair.
My question is, is Councillor Bedford going to be one of the models at the Strutting the
Runway?
I'm sure we'd all like to see that.
So my question, and I'm happy for any of the cabinet to take it, North Weald Bassett is
home to some really fantastic charities.
We've got Bridget's ASL, which is a Down syndrome and additional needs charity that meets every
Wednesday in Hastingswood.
We've got the Thornwood and the Northwield Senior Society,
the third Northwield Scouts,
but charities are struggling across the district.
And like we've seen with St. Clair,
it's times are tough and I've been so happy
to see such amazing fundraising going on
by yourself Chairman and supported by other members
in this chamber to support the charity
at this really difficult time.
Another charity I do want to raise
is the Northweald Airfield Museum.
Like a lot of charities in Northweald
and across the district, it is struggling.
I've had people come up to me and say
that they're struggling to get people through the door.
The bills are getting higher.
And I just find it very sad that this is such an iconic
piece of our heritage and our history
that they feel like they're on their own.
So I'd really like to know exactly how EFDC can support Northfield Airfield Museum
and its incredibly dedicated staff who care so much about the history of the airfield and the village.
How can EFDC support this museum so it doesn't ever close its doors
and so that Northfield's history can keep flying for decades to come? Thank you.
Thank you. Councillor Hollywood -Bryant.
Thank you, Chairman, and thank you to Councillor Bromwich for that question.
Cllr Holly Whitbread - 0:55:14
And I agree the museum is a fantastic space.
As a lover of history, I find it fascinating.
And you could spend hours in there looking at all the artefacts
and information they have.
And we want museums to survive.
And we've seen in the district,
the survival of our own museum has been a real challenge and a struggle.
Funding museums is increasingly difficult.
There are external funding available.
also things like the Heritage Lottery are really effective.
One thing I would say, my gut instinct,
and I used to be the chairman of the museum,
but I'm no longer a trustee,
I think there's a real opportunity
for partnership working between the two,
and I think that's something that should be looked at.
So both organisations can survive in the long term
and potentially work together on particular things
like storage, which is a really costly thing for museums.
Just in terms of general funding
for many of the brilliant North Wales charities,
but also the charities across the district.
We've got the Community Fund, which is open to applications
for smaller applications, as well as big substantial applications,
up to 250 ,000, and that's still open with funds,
so please do encourage local organisations to apply for that.
There are representatives, both from the North Wales School
and the North Wales Parish on that committee,
and I know organisations in North Wales have already benefited
from that funding, so please do encourage others to apply.
I would also like to highlight the work of the lottery, which is fantastic.
I went to the two -year anniversary of the lottery just last week.
Although it is small amounts of revenue that is generated for charities, it is still revenue
and that extra £100 a month is fantastic.
There is the opportunity to win bigger pots there as well.
That is something I would always encourage organisations to apply to.
Obviously, in the past, we have seen grant funding from government, things like the Rural
Prosperity Fund, which has benefited organisations across the district.
We wait and see whether we are rewarded with opportunities
like that in the years to come.
But funding for charities is really a challenge.
It's a huge issue.
But in Epping Forest we do all we can to support.
We are incredibly fortunate with the community fund.
I don't think any other district has that.
And we are very, very lucky to have secured that.
But happy to have a chat offline and I can put you in touch
with our grants officer as well.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:57:36
I can add that Essex Heritage Trust do provide grants as well and they were looking in this
particular area.
Councillor O 'Neill.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Annie May O'Neill - 0:57:46
My question is to the portfolio holder responsible for housing.
Following the recent closure announcements concerning asylum accommodation in Epping
Forest, can the cabinet member confirm how many residential properties across Onda or
the district are currently being used under home office asylum accommodation contracts?
How many of these are houses in multiple occupations, HMOs, and how many individuals are accommodated
within them? If this information is not currently available, what steps has the current administration
taken to obtain this from the home office and its contractors? And will the cabinet
member commit to securing greater transparency and oversight of illegal immigrant accommodation
operation within Epping Forest. Thank you.
Thank you, Councillor.
Cllr Smruti Patel - 0:58:33
Thank you, Councillor, for your question. Yes, I will have to respond that too in writing
and get the information that needs to be heard. Thank you.
Councillor Howard Colfman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 0:58:44
Cllr Howard Kauffman - 0:58:46
Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am going to struggle slightly to turn this into a question. It
is for Councillor Ken Willingson. I am sorry, last one. So I do fully subscribe to the fact
are a huge company and incredibly reputable. I do think that the question could be,
will counsel William consider writing to them to say that their position as advising
the counsel on the stage one review is not compatible with advising an applicant
on a potential site in our district. And I'm sure they'll be shocked that that's
actually happened because they shouldn't be on both sides, and I think we could politely
to say it is us or them and hopefully they will stick with us. Thank you.
Councillor Williamson.
Cllr Ken Williamson - 0:59:28
I am happy to do that. As I said, it is a worldwide consultancy and I am sure they have
different offices and different sections, but it is still not a good look, I totally
agree, and I will write to them.
Thank you.
We have Councillor Karen McIver.
Cllr Karen McIvor - 0:59:46
Thank you, Chair. Just before I ask my question, can I just say it's very disappointing tonight,
the Leader's report was very lack of content and also very brief. We wait six weeks for
full Council and we all like to hear what's going on in our Council and it's very brief
tonight.
Moving on to my question, I represent rural east and can the Leader or the Council confirm
with the cold weather coming, there are contingency plans in place to look after the elderly and
vulnerable residents in our rural communities, should the weather take a turn for the worst.
Thank you.
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 1:00:28
Thank you, Chairman. I would recommend that some of that belongs to the County Council
rather than the District Council. As a District Council, we do a number of different actions
through housing and through other parts of the Council
to support older, refundable people,
but not all of it is our responsibility.
In regards to my report this evening,
it's brief because we've just gone through the summer period
and we're now coming back to life again as a district
and more meetings on a daily basis.
Thank you very much.
And we have a question from Councillor Morgan, Lisa Morgan.
Thank you very much, Chair.
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 1:01:03
Actually, I've got a couple of points, if you don't mind first.
The first one is, I do feel as an independent, we should support Tory councillors.
So I would like to second Councillor Bedford to be one of your models, Holly.
And I really do believe that he would be wonderful.
The second point is, could we please, please turn off the air conditioning?
I'm absolutely frozen.
And the other point is, this actually is for Councillor Balcombe, because I cannot
go through a full council meeting without putting Sank in his direction and for Councillor
Stongar, just to say I'm really, really impressed with TBS and the fly tipping, people coming
out and doing things, because most of the fly tipping I report, and I am very sad to
write, do report, lots and lots of them, are cleared within 24 hours. And I've got to say,
last week one was actually cleared. I reported it at nine o 'clock in the morning, and when
I went back onto my emails and just before 1pm I had an email saying it had been cleared
already. I have done it. You have done it personally. You have had your bag. You have
tipped it. I have just got to say we will get the moaning. You don't very often get
people saying thank you. So thank you very much. Now onto the moaning bit.
You have a question. I do have a question. This is either for Councillor Williamson again
or the leader of the Council.
Are EFDC going to follow Colchester City Council's lead
and write to Angela Rayner, Secretary of State,
demanding that the government reverse its decision
of stripping local councils of their say
and democratic right of elected representatives
on making decisions on planning in our local area
and leave it to unelected officers?
Thank you very much.
That was a good one, Mr. Chairman.
The simple answer is yes.
Cllr Ken Williamson - 1:02:55
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Amos.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Clive Amos - 1:03:04
This is a question for Councillor Boulton.
Waste collection.
Let me start by saying that I think TBS continue to provide an excellent waste collection service,
both my own experience on observing them working.
This is a question though on communication.
Every six months we get one of these little leaflets telling us what's going to be collected,
which wheat and what we have got to put in which bin.
Now I have received representations from flat dwellers who use the communal wheelie
bins that they do not get these and apparently several of the flats are tenanted and the
tenancy changes quite rapidly and the new tenants do not know what is supposed to go
in which bin and unfortunately they put the wrong things in the wrong bins and the bins
get contaminated? And the question really is, could we have some sort of arrangement
whereby the flat dwellers know what they are supposed to be doing as the rest of us get
every six months? Thank you.
Cllr Raymond Balcombe - 1:04:05
Thank you for the question and yes, I will look into that, but I do believe that the
information is supposed to be put where the bins are and it is down to the management
of the flats to display them.
Thank you.
Councillor Rackham.
Cllr Sheree Rackham - 1:04:22
Thank you, Chair. I would like to be the third person to nominate
Councillor Bedford, please, to do his catwalk stuff.
My question is to Councillor Williamson.
Councillor Williamson, some time ago I asked you to write to Enscale for me.
Can you just give me a progress report on that?
Before I say that, I would like to say a special thanks to Councillor Sunger and TVS because
I am always reporting fly -tipping, but I have to say that we have had, in the ward I represent,
and I know in another ward close to me, that we have had some really good wins. So thank
you, because you are making a difference. Thank you.
Thank you. Councillor Abbot.
Cllr James Abbott - 1:05:16
Thank you, Chair. My question is for Councillor Sunger. I must first take issue with his earlier
suggestion that as County Councillor for Waltham Abbey I have done nothing to tackle antisocial
behaviour in the town. It was local Waltham Abbey councillors of all parties who brought
together the relevant authorities, Labour policing teams and community representatives
to tackle these issues after years of neglect by this administration. Reform you can't take
antisocial behaviour seriously. Through Operation Vanguard we have taken practical action to
protect women and girls in town centres across the county. It took us four days to mobilise
the relevant offices to protect our young women and girls against unbetted men that
are roaming freely throughout town centres and security.
Sorry, Chair. I want to turn to another serious concern. Early this month, a vehicle
crashed into a residential property on Stanway Road in Waltham Abbey. This incident provides
an opportunity to address the wider concerns residents have raised about speeding and dangerous
driving before another family is put at risk. Will the Cabinet member give me his personal
commitment to work constructively with me, local councillors and residents to pursue
a meaningful long -term solution to speeding reckless driving on our estates in Waltham
Abbey.
Thank you.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 1:06:37
Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Councillor Albert, for your question and somewhat a misunderstanding,
if you want to call it.
In relation to working very closely, as you know, we had a meeting with Councillor Keller
and other district and town councillors from Waltham Abbey and with the police as well,
and we had a walkabout down Sun Street and around the Market Square as well.
And yes, we identified a number of hotspots for antisocial behaviour.
And the part where you say with that car crash, yes, sympathies with the people there,
yes, I'm aware of that.
I will be speaking to Caroline Wiggins, our officer, where we go with regards to that.
But I am able to give you some news and some comfort.
We've spoken to our district chief inspector of police, district commander, Terry Fisher.
You may have had an email from, I think, Paul, Councillor Keller had an email where he is
looking to see if he can find resources to spend a little bit more money in making the
community safer in Orthon Abbey.
I hope that is some reassurance, but if you have any other questions, I am happy to have
a meeting outside.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Risby.
Did you ask?
No?
Oh, okay.
I thought so.
Thank you.
Councillor Sheree.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:07:58
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Razia Sharif - 1:08:01
I have had to wait a long time to ask this question, but I am not going to ask the question
immediately.
Josh and Sunge, Councillor York, very popular this evening.
I'd like to put up something positive on record.
Since I launched my Clean Up Epping campaign a couple of months ago,
I reported a number of flight of incidents,
and on every single occasion, the response has been amazing.
It's been swift and very, very quick.
I particularly want to thank Brian Elick,
Service Manager from the Community Resilience Team.
They have been amazing.
And I think it's really important that we recognise officers
on frontline teams when they respond exceptionally well.
I mean, obviously removal is only part of the problem.
We also need to deter people
and I will be supporting your motion later
when we come to that.
My question is that will increasing,
how will we know if increasing the fine
to £5 ,000 will actually work?
I mean, do we have a figure on what proportion of penalties are actually paid?
And do we have the staff that when offenders don't pay, do we have the staff to deal with
that?
Thank you.
I may as well be standing up all evening.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 1:09:23
Thank you, Councillor Shri.
In relation to, so we've got a motion later on this evening where every member will have
an opportunity to give me the mandate as the portfolio holder to have the maximum penalty
set at 5 ,000.
Now, I choose my words very carefully.
It's a maximum penalty of 5 ,000 pounds.
The meeting that took place yesterday at the Palace of Westminster, other council leaders
and other people in my similar position, it was also the opinion, if we have a 5 ,000 -pound
a penalty, how much will that get paid?
Will they be able to pay it?
Something that we need to explore,
I can't give you the answers tonight,
but I reassure the council that I will go back
to that second meeting to see where it goes.
But there is something happening in the background.
I will give you a little bit of a taster.
And that is, it's not just about finding people,
it's also about hitting them where it hurts.
And that is, if they've got a vehicle,
we wanna seize the vehicles.
And if they've got a driver's licence,
which they will have, I'm hoping,
we wanna put penalties on it.
That is something that has been proposed.
It is not happening, but that is something we are looking towards,
punishing people that actually caused these criminal activities in our district and other parts of the country.
Thank you for your question.
Thank you.
Thank you, members.
There are no other questions.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:10:40
We have just hit the minutes.
Yes.
Councillor Brahe, did you want to ask a very quick question?
Sorry.
A very quick question, then.
You've got a minute.
Cllr Jamie Braha - 1:10:56
For Councillor Risby, I wondered if you could tell us about the work the Council has been
doing to improve the health and wellbeing of our residents in the District.
Thank you, Councillor Brahe, for the question.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:11:10
if I can maybe take the wellbeing part of it first.
And you'll be pleased to know that in your ward
of Grange Hill, in Lime Farm in particular,
we have got a upcoming Stay Safe and Well event
coming up on the 18th of November.
We had a similar one in Waltham Abbey,
which was phenomenally well received.
There was in excess of 90 residents
who had all participated and the feedback was glowing.
And in terms of the health part,
we have gone out to public consultation
for our health and wellbeing strategy for 2027 to 2031.
And over the last four years
of our health and wellbeing strategy,
I have some really good figures to report back to council.
And I'll ask officers to circulate this
as part of the members bulletin,
but average life expectancy has seen a slight increase
for males and females over the last four years
of our health and wellbeing strategy.
The inequality gap in life expectancy
between the most affluent and deprived wards has decreased to 7 .2 years for males and 7
years for females, and the healthy life expectancy gap between the most deprived and most affluent
wards is 9 .2 years.
So some really, really positive work that's already been done by this Administration,
by this Council, and look forward to delivering for more in the future.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Well, that concludes the questions.

10 Approval of Section 62A Action Plan

Cllr Alan Lion - 1:12:35
So we move on now to item 10 on the agenda, which is the consideration approval of section
62A action plan, which you can find on pages 49 to 63 of your agenda.
May I ask Councillor Williams to present this report?
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Ken Williamson - 1:12:56
Members, this is probably one of the most important decisions we make on this de -designation.
I think we all agree that the sooner this is done, the better.
We fortunately have two quarters now under 10 percent, which meets one of the criteria
the MHCLG gave us.
We had to get through those two quarters before we could submit any documents or anything
to allow us hopefully to be de -designated.
received. It's something that went through Cabinet. Cabinet, those that attended Cabinet
came up with some useful suggestions. They have been amended in these documents. There
was a briefing last night for members, which 17 members attended, again with good questions
and excellent answers from our team. I'd like to thank all of the officers for the work
they put in, and I'm hoping that we can send a really positive message to MHCLG by passing
this unanimously tonight.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Are there any questions?
Okay.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:14:10
So, the recommendation before you is that Epping Forest District, Section 6 – ah,
Councillor Dabney wanted to speak.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:14:23
What I am actually hoping is that this is a document that can be still amended because
we have had one meeting.
Pardon?
Is that how it is?
Oh, I am sorry.
Because we have had one meeting and I think it is still probably something that needs
to be amended as we go forward with more details.
for example, about the training for both officers and members.
So I'm hoping that there will be opportunity to add to that as we go.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Training is very important and I accept that.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:15:06
Okay, so no other questions, no other comments.
We will look at the recommendations that Epi -Inference District section 62A,
action plan be approved for the submission to the government.
Can I have your agreement?
Thank you.
Okay.

11 Constitution Changes for Planning Committees & National Scheme of Delegation

We move on to item 11, Constitution changes for planning committees
and the national scheme of delegation, which you'll find on pages 64 to 111 of the agenda.
May I ask Councillor Dadd of the Constitutional Working Group to present the report?
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:15:50
Thank you, Mr Chairman. I have the dubious honour of asking for this to be recommended.
As most of you will know, I am one of the great advocates about local democracy and
fighting for the local context and the local concerns at all aspects.
And I feel that this is a very big disappointment,
so I'm very pleased that we have agreed that we're going to write
and say that we're not happy about this to Angela Rayner.
Having said that, I want to actually express a few things.
First of all, I want to say a great thank you to Matt Winslow and his team, and Barbara
Beardsworpe and her team, and the Constitution Working Group in particular, my Vice -Chairman
and Councillor Whitehouse. We can say that it was very robust conversations that we had,
because, as I'm sure you're all aware,
I don't know anybody in this chamber
who is in agreement with this national delegation.
And our officers had lots of meetings with us
and then several meetings as a constitutional working group
to try and see where we could actually still enable
some sort of local input.
But I must say, and I will come on to that, I am sure you have all read most of it and
I will actually do a bit of highlighting of some things, but the reason why we have to
approve this is because after 31 October, anything that goes to a planning committee
will not be lawful. The decision will not be lawful, which means it is likely to go
if people don't agree with it, or would like to go to judicial review.
Having said that, there is also the situation, our constitution, page 100, article 16, has
actually already given delegated power to the monitoring officer to amend the constitution
in accordance to three part dotty two,
accumulating to change in the law.
But having said that, I understand that it is normal
for Statuary 5 reports to happen,
which relates to local governments and Housing Act 1989.
But of course, that will also cause delays.
So reluctantly, I am hoping that you will support this. Now I will explain to you one
or two hopeful things that we are absolutely exploring. So we have worked hard with the
Planning and Legal Department to look and see how we can have local context. I am grateful
to Matt Winslow for bringing to us some work from the Planning Association,
so Planning Officer Society, which is actually going to enable us to have some technical
briefings which will help, and I'll explain that in a minute. But the main changes, as you know,
relate to now going to be presumption in favour of officer decisions.
It would be mandatory officer delegation for many applications, so that's the smaller ones,
up to nine dwellings, and that type of thing, and I'm sure you've all read the list of them.
One thing that you need to also be aware, though, is that any reserve matters that have
been proved under outline planning for developments less than 500 will not go to committee and
is not allowed to go to committee by law.
There's also the end of automatic call -ins,
so wall councillor call -ins,
number of objections by residents and parish councils.
There's also going to be a new referral gateway
for the larger applications, and I'll go on to that.
But what does this mean as far as how
the local planning authority must treat and decide to make the applications.
So very few, which will be in the schedule two,
and you can see this on pages 74 and 74, if I was to refer to that.
The new gateway situation is that some of them can be determined
to go to committee, providing that the officer, the designated officer and designated member
is in agreement. If they are not in agreement, then it is delegated to officers.
And what about the changes it means to youth members, town and parish councils?
I'm sorry.
The problem is I have difficulty standing up.
Well, you can sit down.
If you don't mind, because I've got no villager hands.
Thank you.
Yes, I'm sorry.
I think it's worth explaining this so that you know where we're going.
So as far as members, town and parish councils and residents are concerned relating
to planning applications, they'll no longer be able to have the number of objections
triggering a decision to go to committee.
It will depend very much on the type of application and what is decided at the gateway
test.
It's quite likely, however, that the EFDC award counsellors will have a more important
role in collating and presenting local concerns and context.
And that is particularly important because the details, as you know, have changed as
far as appeals are concerned, and you have to include evidence in the first instance.
So what are we introducing to encourage and relating to ensuring the local context and
local concerns are considered before a decision is made.
For ward council involvement with developers
at pre -application stage, attendance of public engagements
does happen sometimes on an adult basis,
and I know that I certainly benefited
the West Longer concept one,
but that is going to be encouraged.
And there's also a technical briefing,
which is on page 84 of the agenda,
for planning members and war counsellors on some of the applications, which will enable
questions and answers.
It won't look at the merits of the application, but in the same sort of lines that
we had with the Ladybirds, sorry, Ladyfields application where we ask for technical
questions first, that actually is quite useful because you get answers from the things.
Right.
So, monitoring, the other thing that's really, really important
is the ability to monitor the decision -making.
And it's quite interesting to note that the planning decisions
responsibility lies with planning committees,
and that's in government's fact sheet,
although they do have to, and they now have to,
delegate some responsibilities.
That means that the monitoring of decision -making and reporting back to committee is going to
be important, and the protection, another important thing is our protection from inappropriate
influence on officers relating to decision -making.
We have got to make sure that that is robust and similarly inappropriate influence on nominated
officers and members when they are looking at the Gateway Test. So we are working on
a number of mandatory feedback to committees and other monitoring, which I hope will also
help you realise that you have still got a say in things. We are identifying, and this
to involve more local input and hope to bring that back to the
constitution working group in the next few months.
I understand there is an informed meeting of the planning committee
members on the 9th of November, Councillor Heather, I think.
LAUGHTER
So, Councillors will continue to represent their residents.
They'll be able to submit planning representations
and speak on behalf of the communities,
but they'll be at a different stage
and they'd be much tighter time scales
and the procedures will be slightly different.
We're doing all we best and we have some hope
that I can't promise you anything,
but we hope to look into a bit more.
But scrutinising the planning performance
is really important as well
And I think that will work both ways because it will also help inform Councillors
when they're sitting on a committee.
Thank you, Councillor Taylor.
So I would, I'm happy to answer questions.
Okay, Councillor Morgan.
Thank you very much.
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 1:26:10
And thank you very much, Councillor Zafi, especially for last night on the briefing
because it did make sense.
Unfortunately, there was a couple of questions that I wanted to ask.
but it wouldn't let me, so if you don't mind
if I can ask you now, and maybe you can come back to me
at a later date.
So you were saying about the pre -act with developers
is encouraged, I think, which you mentioned last night.
The bit that I wanted to ask about was,
what are we doing to show transparency
so there's no inappropriate influences to our officers?
Because I think residents will really want to see that.
And also, I wanted just to ask,
because obviously in our area,
I know the neighbouring ward councillors in Chigwell
and Buckhurst Hill will be having asked the same question
about AI data centres and what's going to happen with those.
I couldn't quite work out last night
and I couldn't ask, unfortunately, to say,
what would happen with the AI data centres?
Who actually has the final decision on those, please?
Thank you.
Councillor Day's.
Thank you. Yes.
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:27:11
You can sit down.
Thank you.
Well, first of all, your first question related – let's do the AI one first, because I
remember that one.
The AI data centres, that is likely to come under the category of being going to the gateway
because it would have – there's two very strict criteria.
The first is one or more issues of economic, social and environmental significance to the
local area, or one or more significant planning matters having regard to the development
plan and any other material considerations.
And without pre -determining that, I would have thought that it could well be – that's
the case, in which case it would be – it's quite likely to go to Planning Committee.
Looking at Matt Winslow to see if he agrees, that is a good example.
I would certainly say that it is likely to go through the gateway test.
Matt Winslow - 1:28:14
Obviously, as you say, we cannot predetermine the outcome of the application of the gateway
test, but the criteria which you have mentioned, Councillor Dab, assuming it meets the size
criteria for a Schedule 2 and is not a minor development, I know these things can be quite
large, so it is unlikely, then it would at least have a chance to be considered to go
into a planning committee.
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:28:49
The second question which you asked first was about making sure that officers, and councillors,
but particularly officers, don't have undue pressure
to make a determination.
There is already in the new code of practise,
well, decisions will be available on the website,
they have to be.
So the decisions have to be,
and how they're decided through the gateway
They have to be on the website.
And also, we have brought in something about vexatious.
I think it's called vexatious.
I'll find it in a minute.
It's in your notes, though.
One of the parts of it is relating
to vexatious questions.
Can we move on?
Yes.
Mr. Daddits, I think we'll leave it at that.
There's lots of information out there.
Councillor Murray.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 1:30:03
I'd like to thank Councillor Dab for her contribution tonight,
which I found interesting.
I'm not sure I found the 47 pages of reading particularly interesting,
but I did the best I could.
I thought the training last night was really good,
but I will just want to say this, and I know not every member will agree,
we aren't happy with these changes and we have to accept them,
But there is real anger in my ward, there is real anger across Loughton and I would
say actually across the district about how this authority and more accurately how this
administration chose to deal with a very large application for an AI data centre within Roding
Ward.
And we won't forget that.
We did that within our existing rules.
We as an authority, we as a political leadership, not me, the political leadership of this authority
decided that that could be dedicated to offices.
And I just want to remind members that there is real anger, particularly in Loughton and
particularly in Loughton -Roding Wall, that that was not taken to committee.
The decision may have been the same, but the airing of that extension to that AI centre,
than a massive AI centre they have now got permission for would have been much, much
better if that had had the air of publicity and a full democratic decision to commit it.
And there is real anger and it won't be forgotten, Chairman.
Thank you.
Councillor Whisky.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:31:37
Cllr Graham Wiskin - 1:31:40
In light of the Ladyfields application which I was on the committee, I have serious concerns
about the performance and qualitative judgements of our planning officers.
We are handing the crown jewels over to these officers and I have real concerns.
It wasn't just the actions of the planning officer concerned, it was the actions of the
design.
Two fundamental aspects of that particular site.
Now if that's a yardstick for the direction of travel, I have real concerns where we're
going with this.
I know it's government legislation, but I do hope this is overturned, and I hope that
if there are constitutional changes, we reverse it as quickly as possible.
Because the judgement of our planning officers, we need to get that fed back to us as councillors,
because our ward members, our ward constituents,
I suppose I'm looking for, they will be in horror, I think.
Because I don't believe many are aware of this implication,
that these rules are now going to be solely in the hands of a handful
of individuals, some of whom do not live in this district.
So my question would have to be, what extra controls, enhancements can we be given some
assurances of for the quality and output from our planning officers?
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:33:17
I can answer some of that, and that is there is a mandatory requirement to feed back information
to the committee. Bearing in mind the committee is basically responsible for the decision -making
and to introduce and communicate, they have got to communicate back and that will be part
of the new planning committee on reports. What I would really like to pursue, and I
I'm not just speaking alone, but from people in the Constitution Working Group and
other planning committee members, is that the meeting, the informal meeting on the
9th of November is a very good opportunity for bringing some of these concerns
to see what we can do.
I can't promise it, but we can actually have a look at it.
And if you look at the page it is on the recommendation, it does say that the committee
actually say that we will be pursuing looking at how else we can improve
things and have feedback and monitoring. I think monitoring is very, very key.
As far as training is concerned, I think there are also, with the section
62A, there is intended to be training for those officers and counsellors,
but I don't know if Matt Winslow wants to come in more on the officer side.
Thanks.
Thanks, Chair.
I was going to add the same point, actually,
Matt Winslow - 1:35:08
that you've just approved the section 62A action plan,
which looks at enhancements to both the officer training programme
and also the reflections of appeal lessons,
because I don't think something that's necessarily happened universally
across the member or the officer space before.
And in terms of, I think there does need to be a distinction made in terms of planning
applications coming before a planning committee.
Your officers will determine whether or make a recommendation based on whatever is in front
of them.
Now that will be an appraisal first against the development plan and any material considerations.
It is entirely within the committee's remit, even if that is unanimously, to arrive at
a different judgement than your professional officers.
The officers at Epping, you have got a range of officers from lots of different disciplines
which contribute into the planning applications themselves.
But there does need to be a distinction recognised that applications submitted by the Council
and not submitted by your planning officers to themselves.
They're submitted by other departments that go out
and get those designed or get those prepared
in accordance with the intent of the Council.
I just want to come back on self -interest applications.
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:36:44
So the Ladyfields one, for example,
is council owned, so anything that is council owned
or owned by officers or members goes through the gateway test
and is quite likely to come to committee.
Thank you.
We have questions from, yeah, Councillor Amos.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:37:08
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Clive Amos - 1:37:12
I am sure that in common with many people in this chamber tonight,
I am not terribly happy by these changes that are being imposed upon us.
I think we are concerned that how we as councillors can have a voice in the process
and represent the views of our residents.
Having said that, I think it is important to remember
But if we do not change our rules to comply with what the government directs, we could
be acting illegally.
And I don't think anybody in this chamber needs to be reminded about how expensive legal
action can be.
So with a heavy heart and crooked teeth, I find that I would urge everybody to approve
these changes in the constitution. Thank you.
Okay.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:38:15
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:38:17
Can I just add that we are still hoping to have some more involvement, you know, even
though it's going to be a shorter period, but I think there are still some leeway that
we are hoping to look at and Barbara is looking at me steely, but I am sure we will find something.
So please do attend the meeting.
Thank you.
Councillor Jamie McIvor.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 1:38:46
I really appreciate Councillor Dadd's thorough explanations.
But with all due respect, Councillor Dadd,
I think it's right that we hear from the administration on this.
This is very much, in my view, a significant issue caused by the leadership of this Council.
Let's just go back through.
I don't know what the hysterical reaction is for.
Let's just go through some facts.
Number one, the council's planning department
performing so badly during special measures anyway,
conducted because it was believed
that there was insufficient training for councillors,
a known problem.
I have with me exceptional newly elected councillors
in my group and other parts of this chamber, new members.
I don't see any changes really to the induction training
of newly elected members to this authority
from just this year.
So we're giving it out one side saying,
God, all these solutions to make things better.
We are actually not proactively making those improvements.
I don't think that's a councillor dad matter.
I think that's an administration
and operational matter for the council.
We need to know more about this.
Secondly, we now have seen the democratic angle
of planning almost totally destroyed.
Firstly, because we were all forced to believe that if we vote to remove a ward councillor's
right to vote on planning applications, all of a sudden the government will think we're
amazing and they'll never do this to us.
And then they go and do it anyway.
So that was proven to be a load of nonsense.
We now have residents who still do not understand how their local councillor cannot vote on
planning applications.
And the excuse was things were going to get better.
They've got worse.
So if things were going to get better because of the changes originally made and they've
got worse, that again is not a matter for Councillor Dadd, that is not a matter for
members, that is a matter for the political leadership and administration of this Council
and, of course, operational matters.
Can we get back to the motion that we were talking about?
I'm very much discussing the motion, I'm very much discussing the item on the agenda, Mr
Chairman. And the third reason why I again think this is a matter not for Councillor
Dadd, who is exceptional, but for, you can print that in your leaflets, and the people
I'm a Councillor Dad fan.
No one defends the greenbelt more than Councillor Dad.
I also think as a third matter of principle,
we find ourselves in a situation where we are having
to bend over to the government once again,
because of our own incompetence.
It's our fault.
So whilst I think it's very kind of Councillor Dad
with lots of planning knowledge,
Why have we got a cabinet system and an administration
and we're hearing nothing from the cabinet
who ultimately are responsible
for the political functioning of this council
and indeed have influence of the operational matters
relating to this council.
So Mr. Chairman, the point I want to make
is very similar to Councillor Whiskin.
If I'm supposed to have complete faith
on behalf of my residents
that the council officers
are gonna be able to make good decisions
when their own planning applications
get unanimously refused by the Council's own planning committee, I'm sorry, what are we doing here?
So my question is, can somebody please from the administration, please provide us with their views on the matter,
rather than ask Councillor Dabbs, who is knowledgeable in planning, that this is very much a matter for the administration
to explain themselves as to why we are in this situation in the first place, and why the people of Epping Forest
now are putting their green belt in the hands of officers
who have already failed us
on a number of significant planning matters.
Councillor McIver, I've been told that planning
is not an executive function,
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:42:31
and therefore it's not up to the administration
to answer the question.
Mr Chairman, with greatest respect to you and your office,
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 1:42:40
this council has a cabinet member
who is regularly offending councillors
based on what they choose to do at planning meetings,
who is regularly providing reports to council.
I am not accepting that, I'm afraid,
and I appreciate the advice you've been given from the chair,
and I sit in that chair occasionally,
and I have a family member who sits in the chair
and takes advice from officers,
so I understand the position you have been put in.
This council is not run by officers.
This council is run by an administration
and councillors who are elected to office
and a governing group.
That is the Conservative Party.
Therefore, somebody from the Conservative administration
should explain themselves as to why this council is in the situation we know today.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:43:23
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 1:43:27
After all the years that Councillor MacGyver has been on this council, he obviously doesn't
understand how it works.
Well, perhaps if you actually listen ever, you may learn something.
The planning is not an executive function.
If we hadn't taken the decisions we've taken as a council, we would be nowhere now.
coming out of position with section 62A.
It's only because we made those decisions that we've managed to actually start controlling
planning.
When it comes to training, there has been more training.
I doubt that Councillor McIver has ever attended much of it, but there has been training through
the year and there is more training.
Now, of course, he's attacked Councillor Williamson, who's had to leave this evening because he
is ill at the moment, but I'm sure that we will respond in writing to Councillor McIver,
but I do think he needs to understand how councils operate.
I would have thought you would have learnt something after all these years.
Sorry.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:44:21
Yeah, we have other questions.
Councillor Dab, did you want to come back?
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:44:29
Yes, I'd like to come back because I think the motion tonight is actually looking at recommendations that we have been told to do by Government,
regardless of what our internal planning situation is.
And I think that needs to be taken into consideration.
The fact that I've actually suggested that our very good officer group and legal
group and constitutional working group are still anxious to get more input and more
training, I think that is secondary to it.
The main thing here is that we need to recommend what government have insisted
to make sure that we actually are acting legally from the 31st of October, however
reluctantly we feel about the actual situation and constitution.
Thank you. I'll go to Councillor Coughran to present a question.
Cllr Howard Kauffman - 1:45:20
Thank you, Chair. I want to just second that we're very lucky to have Councillor Dab being
so diligent. This is a very complicated set of rules and regulations. So my question really
is I think we've been put on the naughty step by the Government for completely the wrong
reasons. We as councils, I sat on that committee for years, we quite rightly turned out a number
of daft applications that we insisted were put before us and we turned them down, we
stood up and turned them down and the government didn't like it because we turned them down
because they're screaming more and more and we stood our ground. Unfortunately, the government,
bless them, has said that's not good enough and they are interfering and so there's no
Really it's just about how does it work.
So we've got a group of officers,
and they're gonna be lent on like mad
by very keen developers to get their schemes through.
And it's quite a lonely position being a planning officer
where you've got flash harries pushing you all the time
to give and give.
And obviously there is pressure to give,
but how will the planning team
deal with individual applications?
I don't want people working in silos from home making decisions.
So is there a group, do you get in a huddle and say, what do we do about this one?
Leaving people on their own under huge pressure with highly resourced applicants
when we haven't really got any teeth is a recipe for disaster.
And we all know that.
That's why we are not particularly happy with where we are.
So it's about finance, resourcing, the team behind a very good service director of planning,
knows what I'm talking about.
how do we make sure that we do our best in these difficult circumstances?
Matt, can you answer?
I think in terms of the implementation of the changes before you tonight,
Matt Winslow - 1:47:12
there's no real operational changes being made.
So at the moment, there's a team of multi -disciplinary officers,
not just planners, but you have urban designers, architects,
and different specialists from within planning itself.
There is no one planning officer.
So if an application comes in,
it doesn't only see one planning officer.
It doesn't do that now.
There is a quality review process
that cheques the applications progressively.
They have something called case reviews with their managers.
The case reviews with managers,
until that reaches a relative degree of satisfaction,
they don't get onto what is currently the committee list.
if they are to go to committee.
Obviously, the thing that's introduced here
is that there's two new legal roles,
a legal role of a nominated officer
and a legal role of a nominated member,
and they are to perform new statutory functions.
Those processes have got to be in addition
to what we already have.
So, in terms of...
Your office has already come in.
They're not working from home universally.
There is already meetings and discussions that go on in terms of key topics.
There's learning sessions where we're sharing practise across the different officer groups.
And obviously there has been an enhancement and an uplift in terms of training opportunities
available to officers as well over the course of the last year.
So, I think what you are trying to do here though is stitch in extra layers of regulatory
requirements.
So, the introduction of the gateway test, for example, that won't be carried out by
the case officer.
So, that is a layer.
So, that will be carried out by the nominated officer or the – and the nominated officer,
the default nominated officer is me.
That is what is before you today.
and I can delegate in accordance with the regulations that to other people who wouldn't
normally have, we've talked about the conflict around this, who wouldn't normally see the
application itself because that's important that the case officer maintains the integrity
of assessment for that.
So we are looking and working on processes which we will need to take to the planning
chairs and vice chairs group as well, because it will affect them too, because the nominated
members will be the chair of a planning committee or the vice chairs.
And that's part of the sort of statutory guidance that's there.
So I would say that government have indicated that they are going to reflect on the practise
of all councils over the course of the next two years and determine whether or not further
changes are required.
They clearly don't know how these fundamental changes are going to work in practise.
There isn't really at the moment, and there is some statutory guidance, but it's relatively
high level.
And I think that we'll all be feeding, all planning authorities will be feeding their
practise up to the planning advisory service and to government on what's working well,
what's not working well, and we can very well get regulation changes in the future.
Thank you.
We have, I've got, take one more question.
Councillor Whitehouse.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:50:36
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 1:50:39
I think some members are slightly alliding the section 62A action plan, which is an executive
function, which is why it went to cabinet last week and applies only to Epping Forest
and a small number of other councils, and the changes we are discussing now, which are
the ways in which planning applications can and cannot go to planning committees, which
is a council function and not something you have got a lot of choice on and does apply
to all planning authorities across the country.
I'm sorely tempted, as was my group, to vote against this
as a gesture of protest, a performative effort
about our concern and disgust about some of these issues
being taken out of members hands,
particularly as someone who's sat on a planning committee
pretty much all my time on this council until we moved away from the area planning system.
But we do need a constitution that complies with the law, and in particular we do need
a system for referring planning applications which could go to offices or could go to committee.
We do need a system that enables applications where needed to go to committee.
I do think there is going to be a lot of discussion and so forth about what things of significance
are and I don't think what we have got is entirely clear in particular about what happens
with some mixed use applications and in particular I have got concerns about reserve matters,
when reserve matters fall in Schedule 1 and when they fall in potentially if we refer
to the planning committee.
And these things will need to work out.
Mr. Winslow did answer a couple of questions I had
about the processes of members need to be able
to make representations early about, you know,
what they think does make something significant or not,
you know, what material planning considerations are relevant
and what issues need to be taken care of
given the timescales that there be.
And it's going to be all up to us to be very alert
to the weekly list coming out
and making representations on that. So, yes, with a heavy heart, I'll be voting
for it.
But we need to keep the pressure on the government, you know, to change the rules,
particularly as we get the experience of operating them.
Roberts Thank you.
I don't doubt that everybody in the Chamber has the same view, but I think we are where
we are.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:53:10
Counsellor Dadd, last point, because we need to move on.
Cllr Mary Dadd - 1:53:15
Daddis -Dadd I wanted to make one comment in response to Counsellor Kaufman, and that
is that as from 31st of October, 2026,
and I hope we bring it forward,
referral records have to be maintained,
well have to be maintained initially
as from 31st of October, 26,
and published on the council's website
from the first day of operation.
In addition to that, we've got to insert,
this is required by statute guidance,
insert transparency and recording obligation
covering the maintenance of referral record
quarterly reporting to committee, and publication on the Council's website.
And I think there's a few little measures that we are still looking to hope to include
as well, and I hope that will put people's minds at rest.
But please do make suggestions.
Thank you.
Right, okay, let's move on.
We have the recommendation before us.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:54:09
Can I take those as agreed?
Thank you very much.
I know it's a difficult decision, but we have to make it.

12 Motions

Okay, we're now moving on to motions and we have four motions and I think that's going
to take some time.
So let's go into that and see whether we can get through them this evening.
And we have motions from Councillor Risby, the first one.
Yeah, thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 1:54:45
And members, I felt it necessary to bring this motion
before you all tonight in the hope that we can help
to tackle a very, very serious issue within our district.
As a local authority, we have now got the ability
to find those criminals who fly tip in our district,
the very maximum penalty of 5 ,000 pounds.
In my very own ward of Chigual with Lambourne,
we have been victims of regular flight tipping offences.
My two board colleagues and I have attended
to many of those episodes,
be it in Millers Lane in Chigwell Road, Abridge Road,
or at Brick News in Chigwell Village.
And each and every single time, what we have observed
is that this is a criminal act, this is opportunism,
and this is something that needs to be addressed
and tackled head on.
So that is the reason why I've brought this motion
before council.
The final straw for myself and my two board colleagues
is a dreadful incident that took place outside
of Chigwell Primary Academy, the bank holiday weekend before schools were due to start,
two whole lorry loads worth of asbestos containing waste, which poses a public health hazard
for our children and for our parents walking their children to school, was left completely
blocking access to the school. I think those types of behaviours are the exact reason why
we need to go head on and address this issue. A maximum penalty of £5 ,000 whilst it will
be acting and serving as a deterrent primarily.
I think it's also an opportunity for us to receive some of those fines and reinvest back
into frontline public services.
And as we've already heard, throughout tonight, we've made big progress and we've made big
strides.
My cabinet board colleague, Councillor Sunger, has reported back that we have seen a decrease
of 7 % in flight -hipping instances in our district already,
which is phenomenal progress.
We are perhaps one of the only local authorities in Essex
who have seen a reduction because of our measures.
So this administration is working hard for our residents,
but when I still speak to residents who are doing that,
they acknowledge the good work that we're doing,
but they say that we can still go further.
And that is the exact reason why we are proposing this motion.
So I want to be very, very clear, and this is a message to anybody who thinks that they
can get away with fly tipping in our district.
We will find you, and we will find you, and we will find you the very maximum of £5 ,000.
Thank you, members.
Thank you.
Councillor Islou, do you have a second of your motion?
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:57:24
I do indeed, Mr Chairman.
It's Councillor McCann.
Councillor McCann, are you wishing to speak now or reserve your position?
Cllr Craig McCann - 1:57:30
Only just to say I second that motion, thank you.
Thank you very much.
OK, do we have any questions related to that?
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:57:36
OK, Councillor Morgan.
Thank you very much.
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 1:57:43
And I'm really pleased to say that I'm, you know, we're going to look at £5 ,000.
I would prefer £10 ,000, but beggars can't be choosers, can they?
And, you know, £10 ,000 it should be, but I'd like to say thank you very much and thank
to Councillor Soonger for doing this because there has been a decrease. I go down Hook
Lane on a daily basis and you go down Hook Lane and I could report six a day down there.
Now I am lucky to report one a week. So it is really good, it is working, so I am really
pleased about this. And Councillor Soonger did say that £5 ,000, we don't know if we
will get the money, we can do payment plans. We don't care, we want the money and if we
get to 10 ,000. Councillor Bisbee, put it up to 10 ,000 along with Councillor Soonger. Thank
you very much.
Thank you very much.
Councillor Baldwin.
Cllr Alan Lion - 1:58:36
Cllr Roger Baldwin - 1:58:38
Thank you, Chairman. Yes, I just think there's a word of caution really about this. I just
wonder what kind of guidelines we might have that, because I know obviously we're raising
the flight of fines from 1 ,000 to 5 ,000, but shouldn't we have some kind of guidelines
in place so that the environmental enforcement team can ensure that they are scaled proportionately
to the severity, the volume, the deliberate nature of the offence, rather than automatically
defaulting to the new maximum.
I just think that should be aware of that.
Also, I mean, given these high fines, I mean, it could, that could result in many cases
of nonpayment or contested fines. Do we as a counsel have sufficient legal administrative
capacity to manage potential rise in court prosecutions or appeals without straining
our frontline enforcement resources? And also, I think, you know, we do need to have
sort of GDPR guidelines in place regarding specific kind of evidence and CCCV evidence
submitted, especially to ensure successful prosecution.
Thank you, Councillor Baldwin.
Thank you.
Councillor Maspi.
Yeah, and I think Councillor Baldwin
raises a really important point.
I think the purpose behind this motion
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 2:00:01
is to serve as a deterrent first and foremost.
I think the person who may be dropping a bag of crisps
on the floor and as bad as that would be,
I don't think would be subject to 5 ,000 pounds
and we would be working alongside officers
and the cabinet member I know will be working very hard to identify those instances
which constitute the most serious type of offence.
And I'm hopeful if we're able to bump up the fine to 5 ,000,
that in of itself should start reducing the number of instances.
And I think if we're getting a reduction of number of instances,
that obviously will free up officer time to sit there and, you know, go after the real serious cases.
Thank you.
Councillor Whitehouse.
Can I be brief?
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 2:00:44
I suspect if you ask Councillor Sunger, he could have taken this directly to Captain
Cabernet and got this through even more quickly, but we will be supporting this.
I did want to highlight the issue of fly tipping on private land.
Obviously, the fly tipping we see most tends to be fly tipping on the highways, fly tipping
on land that we have responsibility directly for.
I suspect it is the same individuals by and large who are fly tipping on private land
whether that be in the forest, whether that be on the field south of Epping and down towards
Dayton Garnon. My colleagues have got a massive fire tip that was put together over months
at the end of Epping Lane. And it would very much encourage further working with private
landowners as well as on the highways and so forth to make sure we're looking at the
issue in the round.
Thank you. Councillor Brodidge.
Cllr Tom Bromwich - 2:01:44
Thank you, Chair. I think 5 ,000 is a good, well, first of all, it's a really good motion.
I hope it's unanimously voted for tonight. I think 5 ,000 is a good amount. It's an increase
and that's the basic thing that needs to happen. I'm curious to know in Councillor
Sunge's report about the total, there were 16 fixed penalty notices that were issued.
I believe six of them were for business and for household fly tipping.
How many of those fixed penalty notices have actually been paid?
And if we aren't able to get that money from people who are committing offences, then I
don't – I agree with the increase, but I'm not sure what the increase does if we're not
actually getting – if we're not getting people to cough up.
However, with the increase of in the fine, I'm wondering if we can put that towards more
investment working with highways as well, such as Councillor Abbott, who does a wonderful
job on fly tipping in Waltham Abbey.
I wonder if we can do some more stuff with highways to get more cameras to monitor the
hotspots, use the lamppost or use telephone poles to try and get these hotspots monitored
so that we can actually catch more people in the Act and gather more evidence.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Any comments on that?
Councillor Sungga, did you want to come back on that?
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 2:03:16
No, I'm just keen to listen to members across the Chamber on this motion.
I have got a response, but I was just wondering if there's anybody else that wanted to speak on it.
Otherwise, I'll summary it up.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:03:32
We have one more question from Councillor Pong.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Chris Pond - 2:03:38
Since such a large part of the open land in our district is owned by the Conservatives
of Efthand Forest, can I ask what liaison has taken place with the Forest Conservatives
on this question, who I know are regarded as a very serious one, and whether we could
enlist the help of the Epping Forest Constables in policing matters.
Sounds like a good idea, Councillor Risley.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 2:04:12
Yes, I think Councillor Pong raises a fantastic point and we can certainly take that back
and engage with the Epping Forest Constables. To come in on Councillor Bromat's point,
I think he also is quite right in his suggestions.
What I would say is that in cases of non -payment,
as my cabinet colleague had said,
we would also be exploring other forms of deterrent.
So the hope and the end point is alongside
a fixed penalty notice and a fine,
if we're able to get vehicle seizures in
and crush those vehicles,
if we're able to explore options of penalty points
on people's driving licences,
All of those in combination with one another, I think, would be the ideal strategy.
But we have the opportunity as a local authority to raise our maximum fines to 5 ,000 as part
of government legislation.
And I'd be very hopeful that all members can get behind this motion.
Thank you.
OK.
Councillor Colpyn.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:05:02
Thank you, Chair.
It's just a quick one to say.
Cllr Will Kauffman - 2:05:07
Is it too late to say, can we add the 750 pounds for littering to the motion as well?
So obviously 5 ,000 for fly -to -the -seat.
I would be happy to consider that amendment as an addition to this motion.
Cllr Kaz Rizvi - 2:05:18
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:05:22
I think we have exhausted the questions.
Can I ask Councillor McCann to add any comments?
Thank you, Chairman.
Thank you for everybody's contributions here tonight.
I am going to try and keep this short.
Cllr Darshan Sunger - 2:05:38
I support this motion myself as well and thank Councillor Rispy for bringing it before Council.
Flight -tipping is a visible environmental crime that damages our countryside and communities.
It costs taxpayers billions of pounds.
In one particular incident at the roundtable yesterday, a Council is dealing with a waste that's been dumped
and it's going to cost them a ballpoint of about £10 million to clear.
And it costs taxpayers money and undermines civic pride as well.
Those who dump waste illegally should face meaningful consequences.
This motion aligns with the Government's Waste Crime Action Plan, which strengthens
enforcement through tougher penalties, enhanced powers, digital waste tracking as well, better
intelligence sharing and closer partnership between councils and the environmental agency
and the police.
As highlighted in my Portfolio Hold report to council, local authorities can now issue
fixed penalties up to £5 ,000 for flight equipment.
A substantial increase from the previous £1 ,000.
The increase better reflects the offence's seriousness and should provide a genuine deterrent.
Enforcement involves more than fines.
Over the past year, our environmental team has continued to take robust action against
offenders, working closely with partner agencies to investigate instances and pursue those
responsible.
A recent example involved a significant flight in Onge, where a joint operation with Essex
Police resulted in the arrest of a suspect.
The seizure of vehicles believed to be linked to waste offences and the gathering of evidence
for formal action.
This demonstrates our determination to pursue offenders wherever the evidence leads.
I would like to place on record my sincere thanks to the Environmental Enforcement Team
for their professionalism, persistence and commitment to investigating offences, gathering
evidence and supporting prosecutions and protecting our communities.
They deserve significant credit for the progress we have made.
Our message is very clear.
Commit environmental crime in the Epping Forest District and we will pursue you.
As portfolio holder, I'm seeking tonight, on the back of this motion, a review of all
our current FPNs, fixed penalty notice limits. Supporting a maximum £5 ,000 fixed penalty
notice shows that Epping Forest District is not a soft target. We will review policy,
use our powers, work with enforcement partners and encourage residents to report instances
and share evidence.
In summary, this Council has already decided to action against flight tipping supported
by stronger government powers. This motion conforms our commitment to use them to protect
our communities and environment. So our message is clear. There is no excuse for fire tipping,
dump waste in the Epping Forest District and expect investigation, significant penalties
and accountability. I am therefore pleased to support this motion. Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:08:46
Okay, so Councillor McKelvie, are you going to make any further comments?
Okay, so we can take this to the vote.
Everyone in agreement with this motion?
Just as a point of order, Chairman, the motion will have the addition of Councillor Will
Kalkstrom's recommendation of £750 for littering as well.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 2:09:06
Okay, thank you.
I believe that's unanimous, Chairman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:09:12
I believe that's unanimous, Chairman.
Right, fine.
Okay.
So we are moving on to the next motion, but before we do, I notice the number of people
would like a comfort break.
Are we in agreement that we have a comfort break for five minutes?
Okay.
If we could do that and come back by 20 past nine.
We can't do that.
I'm not sure I can.
If we can, we will, but I don't think we can.
Five minutes, back by, twenty past.

12 Motions

Cllr Alan Lion - 2:09:44
Order!
I've always wondered who's doing that.
If the money succeeds, then what you need to do is read the items.
So, if you just list the words, you need to read the items.
I don't know, that's just what's in the Constitution.
So I think we have to have to stand by members.
This is what we're, this is what the substantive opposition is.
And then it will be a new rule.
And then...
Okay, members, I think everyone's back.
Okay, we are running very tight.
I wanted to get finished by 10 o 'clock this evening.
I think Councillor McCann's motion on the DBS cheques, if we don't get finished, he's
prepared to defer that.
But we do need to move swiftly.
So we have Protecting the Salatin Open Spaces, and that's proposed by Councillor Ayles.
Thank you, Chairman.
Yeah, I was going to read the motion, but in the interest of time I won't.
Cllr Michael Owen - 2:11:36
But I just wanted to quickly say this is such an important motion for the LRA.
This relates to the green spaces of Rode Valley Recreation Ground, which is already on a long lease,
Jessel Green, Rochford Green and Newman's Lane.
I became the Councillor about 10 years ago.
I took over from a gentleman called Leon Girling, and Leon was very instrumental in the Safe
Jessel Green motion that's before you today as well.
We also have the Safe Jessel Green members upstairs, and I would urge you all to support
this today.
I think a run was done by this Council many, many years ago, and this is our opportunity
to put it right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Anybody else wish to speak?
Oh, gosh.
Sorry.
Okay, Councillor Murray.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:12:14
Yes, thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 2:12:19
I support this motion, a very important motion for the town of Loughton, a town that I've
loved for 67 years and I really am pleased that my colleagues in the Loughton Residents
Association have put this motion tonight.
These sites are really worth securing for the future.
I have to say that my strong preference is built in trust, particularly for Jesse Green
and that is the current position of the Friends of Jesher Green and the Lowsingtown Council.
But I equally also feel that this is the right approach in terms of the motion, because the
officers and the portfolio holder can put forward the options.
We might want to treat different sites differently, because I think probably there's a stronger
argument for philtre and trust status with Jesse Green and perhaps a long lease for the other sites.
We actually already have a situation in Louton where there was a long lease for the Rode Valley
Recreation Ground which the freehold is EFDC of an out -of -town council as a long lease on the Rode
Valley Recreation Ground, and I have to be honest, the Conservative Administration wouldn't
expect to get a waste cost through if I'm speaking on something.
Our management and our interest in the Road in Valley Recreation Ground, since we've had
the least, is considerably better to the more almost non -existent management that EFDC used
to exercise on that piece of ground.
So really pleased that this motion is of interest to us tonight.
And I think I do need to end up by just thanking a few people or a few groups.
Jessel Green campaign group were instrumental in saving Jessel Green and yet again in this
chamber want to acknowledge their crucial and important role.
I also do want to acknowledge the role of the Loughton Residents Association as a group,
which are almost unique across the country because they have been active in Loughton politics
in the town of Loughton since 1981, and they were instrumental in the protection of Jesse Green.
I'd like to think I did a little bit as well, but I'm not going to put myself forward.
And my last thanks is I do think we do need to put on record again our thanks to the town
council because to be honest it was public money obviously but if they didn't stump up
the £40 ,000 to employ a proper legal planning person at the, where the inspector came in
at the inspection stage I think we could have lost Jessa Grew.
So thank you to everyone who has protected it so far and I really look forward to the
report and we will take a detailed look at the recommendations.
But I am certainly leaning leftward to calls to the Fields in Trust option.
Sorry, my apologies to Councillor Owen.
I should have asked if you have a seconder for your motion.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:15:40
I have Councillor Cuthman, Will Cuthman.
Councillor Cuthman, are you willing to speak now or?
Cllr Michael Owen - 2:15:48
Thank you, Chair, and I just say thank you, Councillor Murray, for saying everything that
I was otherwise going to say.
It's very helpful.
Cllr Will Kauffman - 2:15:50
I delegated it by way of force.
This is obviously a critical point and critically important for the LRA, and I am delighted
to second it.
I'm sure all my colleagues, we had a bit of a bonfire, and I'm pleased to say I think
I got there earlier this time.
Thank you.
Okay, we have Councillor Whitby, did you want to raise questions?
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:16:10
Chairman, very briefly, I would like to thank the Latin Residence Association and our members
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 2:16:16
I'll allow some Councillors to bring this forward to myself.
As members know, at the last cabinet meeting,
the administration brought forward
the community asset management policy,
which means that we can consider areas like Jessel Green
and other green spaces around our district,
where it may be better to be in the hands
of the parish and town councils
than in the hands of the district council,
particularly bearing in mind at some point in the future,
there may be a change of local government organisation.
It was something we did as part of LGR.
It is the legacy of that.
Really pleased that I was approached by Councillor Owen, Councillor Pond, Councillor Mead, Councillor
Baldwin, Councillor Kaufman and many other local outland Councillors.
I am pleased that we are delivering this.
Obviously, it pots right some of the decisions that were taken during the local plan.
Councillor Wilding Barrett.
Thank you, Chair.
I will be quick.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:17:11
Cllr Natalie Wilding-Barrett - 2:17:16
Just to say, I welcome Councillor OWEN's motion on our green spaces, both now and for our
future generations.
It is of paramount importance to the residents of Lyallton, so it is thank you from all of
us.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Boulding.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:17:29
Cllr Roger Baldwin - 2:17:31
Yes, we, as residents of Lyallton, we very much support the motion.
And we do wonder about the fields in trust.
We think that would be the preferred option,
but we realise it's going to be very difficult to implement.
So we support, I think it's been suggested,
a long -term lease for 125E lease.
Do you wonder about paragraph 2C,
which requires a report within three months
and addressing the cost and maintenance
the governance implications, which is one I wonder about
the upfront financial legal expenditure
to complete this review.
And would placing these sites under restrictive long -term
designation shift maintenance or identities
for things like insurance, insurance costs
onto downtown town council.
So a bit worried about the costs
and who would actually maintain the group
and who would maintain the greens.
So there's likely a little bit of clarification about that.
The other thing I'd like to say is about the scope of exclusions.
Would there be a mandate to exclude community infrastructure?
Because I think a set of public toilets would immensely enhance Chestnut Green.
So I think I'll just stop there.
Thank you.
Councillor Owen, did you want to come back on that?
Yeah, just to come back.
Loudoun Town Council are already looking at the cost implications. They're working closely
Cllr Michael Owen - 2:19:02
with EFDC on this. I think the whole point of this is that there's three months to discuss this type
of thing. We're not trying to restrict them in what they do by putting extra clauses in
on public toilets or costs or whatever. We want both of them to get on and agree.
Thank you very much.
Cllr Louise Mead - 2:19:25
As State Governor of Loudoun, I'm happy to support this motion to protect these greens,
particularly from my wall, Jessa Green.
And our green spaces matter enormously to residents
because once they're built and they're gone forever.
I must admit, I'm reading the motion.
I was surprised that Councillor Chris Pond
didn't bring the motion here today
because during the last 12 years,
he has worked very, very hard as Councillor Murray mentioned
and he's one of those Councillors
that has been very strategic in protecting Jessel Green.
And I'm also pleased to see hopefully
that the deputy leader of Loughton Residence Association
as a whole may have had a change of heart
because in 2021, Councillor Sherry Rackham
was calling the residents of the people's district council,
particularly Loughton, nimbis and bananas
and suggesting that objections to new construction anywhere and everywhere in Loudoun particularly
was acceptable.
But we are all entitled to change our minds when presenting with strong public opinion
or simply a deeper appreciation of what makes our community a success.
So I am glad that she has listened to Councillors like Councillor Pons and maybe Councillor
Murray and I come to appreciate that so many local residents have always understood that
not every piece of open land is suitable for development and that some places are worth
protecting for future generations such as Jesse Green.
So I'm delighted that we can stand together tonight in defence of Jesse Green and the
other Greens mentioned. After all, protecting value of Greenspace should not be about party
labels or political convenience or who proposes the motion. It should simply be about doing
what's right for Loughton and for the residents that we represent.
So for that reason, I'm wholeheartedly supporting the motion and I very much hope that as the
Ward Councillor, I'm invited and involved in the discussions, particularly about the
long -term possible lease for Jessel Green, which will give the town council control.
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you.
Councillor Mead, I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to mention other Councillors.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:21:39
Councillor Murray.
Can I just make one quick point, please? I must say, I think for a previous chairman
Cllr Stephen Murray - 2:21:50
of the Council to make personal comments like that, and I'm glad you've made the comment
you make, and I will just make this comment. I've had many more colleagues over the years,
because I've been here a long time. I've had many more colleagues over the years, and can
I say that the last two years that I have had Councillor Rackham as one of my colleagues,
who is one of the finest colleagues I have worked with since 1982.
I don't want to get into any more debates about that.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:22:23
I think we have got enough information.
Can we vote on this?
Are we all in agreement with this motion?
Thank you.
Okay, let's move on.
Mr Chairman, on a point of order, I would just like to say that it may have been possible that the member was part of a different group.
What rule has been broken?
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 2:22:40
Not a rule, a point of order.
The Member may have been in a group where you are told what to say and there is often
repercussions if you don't.
I think it is right that is on public record.
Let's move on.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:22:55
We have a third motion and it is proposed by Councillor Jamie McIvor.
Councillor McIvor, would you like to present your motion?
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 2:23:11
The reason the reform group this evening would like to bring this motion to Council is because
we saw with the saga of the Bell Hotel that this Council could have done much better.
From the inception of the hotel being opened initially to the reopening of the hotel, which
I appreciate the Conservative groups at the time I was a member of it, was really enjoying
the opportunity to use it as a political football.
And subsequently, the reopening was all right,
because there was a plan to cancel elections.
And then of course, the real -
Dr McIver, could you read your motion?
Would you like me to read it?
I thought the idea was to present it and propose it.
I think it's to read the motion.
Well, I don't believe you read it line for line,
as other members have articulately.
They have not read their motion, Mr Chairman.
They have presented the motion to council.
But if I'm incorrect, please let me know.
That means the whole meeting has been done incorrectly.
But Mr. Chairman, may I present the motion or continue,
or would you like me to stop?
Okay, propose your motion.
I'm proposing the motion for me.
Am I allowed to speak or would you like me to not speak?
Carry on.
I'm allowed to speak.
With what I've just done previously,
am I correct or incorrect with procedure of this Council?
Carry on, propose your motion.
So I was correct, thank you.
Mr. Chairman, there was clearly a path
to cancelling elections,
which meant that it wasn't seen as an urgent matter.
Then of course, the true feelings of the town of Epping
and the wider Epping Forest community was known.
And in a tragic incident that nobody ever wishes anybody
to experience happened,
a serious matter that has been through the courts.
A matter which I believe would just simply not have happened
if the Bell Hotel had not been reopened
and unvetted men from countries which have very dim views on women, countries that do
not share the values of this Christian country that we live in. Those men were allowed to
walk freely in this town and there was no safeguards or protections for the people of
Epping and the wider Epping community. Now, Mr Chairman, the motion as laid out in the
gender right and I note there's been an amendment put.
As for one very important thing,
other than the recognition of the trauma
that an Epping Forest resident experienced
and indeed the wider community,
and making very clear where there were fundamental failures
from this council's commons department
to things that were said, the way residents were judged,
and I do wholeheartedly believe
that it is because of the nature
in which the people of Epping Forest were treated,
that there is now a large group on this part of the chamber
and a diminished group on that side of the chamber,
because the people felt so strongly
about how they have been wronged.
And the very least this authority could do
is to recognise it made errors,
including the error of not stopping the hotel
from reopening in the first place,
which a court case has confirmed
that this council missed opportunities
which would have provided enforcement power,
which could have led to that hotel being closed
if there was genuine political will to close,
which I don't believe.
And that incident may not have happened,
but other incidents could have happened.
And the fact that this council was legally impossible
to actually close that hotel
because of fundamental failures at the early stage,
the people of Epping Forest deserve an apology.
Just like my colleague recognised that his choice of words at a previous meeting was substandard,
he recognised that and made an apology because that's what decent good people do.
And I believe that this is a good and decent organisation, but it got it wrong.
And the people of Epping Forest suffered, the people of Epping suffered.
We also know that the authorities let us down. Essex Police let us down.
They will be first to admit it.
Individual officers have admitted it to me.
Because there were drama queens in this organisation
that decided to exacerbate the issue
for their own political reasons,
we then sought an over the top policing
and they inflicted on this community
the worst police force in the country, the Met Police.
Of all the places and of all the times,
they did this, we did this.
This council's weak leadership did this to the people of Epping Forest.
And I wholly expect when I came in this evening,
there would be an amendment to try and dilute the situation.
That sums up the total lack of judgement of this place.
But ultimately, this is a democracy.
Every single person in this chamber, with the exception of officers,
represents a part of this district.
And you have a choice as to whether you go to your residence and say,
you know what, the handling could have been better.
We're going to apologise and move on
because that's the right thing to do.
All this remains something that is another mistake,
another error of judgement of this authority.
And as a member, when I dared to say
the Essex Police were doing a bad job
and I dared to raise matters,
I was stopped mid -meeting all the matter
of public record because of misinformation.
The people of this district who chose to execute
their democratic right to protest were labelled far right, were labelled fascist, were labelled
bigots because they didn't want their child potentially to be sexually assaulted. Because
perhaps like Siobhan White, my very good friend, tomorrow, two years since her daughter died
for being stabbed in the head 23 times with a screwdriver by a man that should never have
been in this country ever before. And this authority missed the opportunity to close
a hotel which houses those sorts of animals. No, not acceptable. So for this authority
to simply suggest that there is no apology to be had would be wrong. And so that's why
this group, my group, is bringing forward a very sensible motion which outlines all
of the important things, condemnation of violence, recognition, the fact there was
victim at the heart of this, multiple victims, and that there are other victims who are scared
to report crime because they're scared of being called racist. Let's show those people that they
are not to be judged by this authority, that victims of crime will be taken seriously, and
let's, for the most important thing, let's recognise that this authority made errors and
and apologise because in doing so, we show, probably for the first time since this matter
has become of such significant public interest, we for the first time show that we understand
that we have empathy. Because if you read the cons from this council during the whole
process, hardly any mention of the victim, hardly any mention of the people, the brave
mums that stood weekly, day in, day out, every weekend, religiously, peacefully protesting
for their children and grandchildren.
Those people deserve recognition because if it wasn't for the fact this became a national
storey there wouldn't have been the action of this council, there wouldn't have been
the action of the government and those unvetted men would still be an epic.
We have heard your point.
We understand exactly what you're saying.
I'm so pleased.
but can I just conclude my speech?
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:30:55
Can you continue, bearing in mind the time, can you conclude?
I will conclude my speech by saying this, Mr Chairman, thank you.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 2:31:05
There is an opportunity to just do the right thing and vote for the motion as it is.
I see political football has already taken place.
That's fine to be expected.
We've seen throughout this meeting this evening the sort of diminished
once positive group has become.
But there is an opportunity just to do the right thing.
And I ask yourself this, what is your message to people who are affected by the Bell Hotel
matters?
Is your message that you don't think there's an apology to be had?
Or is your message that you're going to vote for a watered down amendment with absolutely
no empathy?
If that's the choice you make, that's fine.
That's your choice.
But I encourage all members to vote for the motion as it is so that we can apologise to
people are beping for us for where this authority made serious errors. Thank you.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:31:59
Councillor MacIvor, do you have anyone to second your motion?
Councillor O 'Neill, do you want to speak now or at the end of the debate?
Cllr Annie May O'Neill - 2:32:09
I would like to do it at the end, please.
Thank you very much. Okay, we have a question or a comment from Councillor Sharif.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:32:17
I am waiting for the amendment and then I will speak. Thank you.
OK. So how do we do that now?
Cllr Razia Sharif - 2:32:25
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:32:27
So I think we will hand over now to Councillor McCann who is going to propose an amendment.
Cllr Craig McCann - 2:32:50
Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I cannot support the motion that has been presented
in its current form, and hence I have put forward an amendment. At a time when our community
faced significant challenge and division, all of us, regardless of political affiliation,
had a responsibility to act in a manner that reduced tensions and promoted community cohesion.
For that reason, I find it difficult to support a motion that seeks apologies from others
whilst appearing to overlook the contribution that some individuals may themselves have
made to the atmosphere that developed during this period. Reflection, if it is to be meaningful,
should apply to all concerned. More fundamentally, the motion lacks the level of evidence and
specificity that I would expect before this Council is asked to endorse its conclusions.
The motion refers to concerns about the rights of peaceful protesters, the actions of public
authorities, the proportionality of policing arrangements and the language used by senior
officials. Yet it does not clearly identify the statements, decisions or actions for which
an apology is sought. Without that detail, Councillors are being asked to endorse broad
assertions without a sufficient evidential basis.
Similarly, the motion states that many police officers
feel let down by the handling of the protests.
Now this may or may not be the case,
but no evidence is presented to demonstrate
that this represents a widely held view
within the police service.
The motion further suggests that victims of crime
have been reluctant to report offences
for fear of being accused of racism.
Again, no evidence is offered to support that claim. Such an assertion should not be included
in a Council motion unless it can be substantiated. I am also concerned by the request for the
Council to write to the Police, Fire and Crime Commissioner to determine why extreme measures
were taken. That wording appears to reach a conclusion before any independent assessment
has been undertaken. If a review is required, it should be objective and evidence -led, not
framed around assumptions.
What is particularly surprising is that previous calls
were made for formal debrief and lessons learned exercise.
That seemed an entirely sensible and constructive proposal.
Such a process would allow all parties
to understand what happened,
identify lessons for the future
and ensure that conclusions are based on evidence
rather than assertion.
Instead, this motion appears to move directly
to demands for apologies
before any comprehensive review has taken place.
This motion has been presented by the Chair of the Overrout and Scrutiny Committee, and
so I would have expected a much greater emphasis on scrutiny, evidence and objective assessment
before seeking to assign blame. For those reasons, I believe the Council should focus
on establishing facts, learning appropriate lessons and supporting community cohesion,
rather than endorsing a motion that contains a number of significant assertions that have
not been adequately evidenced. Hence, I put forward my amendment.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor McAnlis, you have a seconder for your amendment.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:36:07
Your amendment, sorry.
Councillor Honey -Whitford, do you wish to speak now?
Thank you. I second the motion and reserve my right to speak.
Cllr Holly Whitbread - 2:36:19
Councillor Sherrie, if you wanted to raise a question.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:36:23
Cllr Razia Sharif - 2:36:25
Thank you, Chairman. Well, I welcome this amendment by Councillor Craig McCarran. I
I don't think anyone in this chamber would think about minimising what happened or the
impact on the victim and the family, and of course the residual impact on residents and
businesses. But there's a difference between learning lessons and reopening old rooms.
Epping has been through enough. I think the victim, her family have been through enough.
certain counsellors in this room, including myself,
have been through enough.
We had verbal attacks, online bullying, death threats.
I think that's enough.
Accountability requires evidence.
Repeating an allegation doesn't turn it into a fact.
Our responsibility now is to learn the genuine lessons,
reject violence and intimidation,
and support our residents and businesses. We build the community trust and help Epping
move forward. The choice tonight is between rehearsing last year's divisions or focusing
on Epping's future. I believe this amendment gives us the best way forward. I do have a
question for the leader. I would like to know, if I may, what steps will now be taken to
strengthen community cohesion, support residents and businesses and help Epping move forward.
Thank you.
Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Councillor Sharif. I think that was a really good measured
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 2:38:02
input to the debate. Steps are already being taken. We are working very closely with our
partners within the police force and across the community, and we will continue to work
I think even things like we mentioned, the town centre partnerships that have come back
to life, those sort of community events in the high street that we had in the summer
that you attended and you were busy walking around all day, they're the things that matter
to a community.
That's how you rebuild that feeling of trust and make the community, help the community
to move forward.
I'll speak shortly, Chairman.
Thank you.
Councillor O 'Neill.
Thank you, Chairman.
I will say these are probably my own views,
Cllr Michael Owen - 2:38:45
not of Latin residents, just because we're independents.
I didn't like the hotel.
I'm very glad it's shut down,
but I do agree with Councillor McCann, to be honest.
I think criticising the police
when we should be supporting the police
and working with the police is probably a better way forward.
I'm a big fan of the police.
I think the original motion probably just went too far.
There's a lot I agree with in the original motion,
but I just think it went too far for me.
I had too many things in there.
Had it been watered down, I would have supported it, but I will be supporting the amendment.
Thank you.
Councillor Lee.
Thank you, Chairman. I wasn't going to speak, but I will. I am very disappointed in Jamie.
Cllr Jeane Lea - 2:39:27
Myself as a teenager, I was sexually attacked by a friend of my dad's, and I had to fight to get
away. And I think it is disgusting that we have used a political pointer, bringing this
family back into the limelight, just to score political points, because that is all that
this has done. Yes, there was mistakes, and hopefully we have learnt by them, but no mistake
was made deliberately, and our officers worked very hard and some of the cabinet to try to
Cllr Stephen Murray - 2:40:15
the original motion that I wasn't supportive of.
So on balance, I was not gonna support the motion
because it was trying to do too many things.
I think the contribution from Councillor McCann
is absolutely bang on.
Evidence -based comments are much better than assertions.
I think the contribution from the current Mayor of Epping
has reinforced my view to vote against the motion.
and I just have to say personally, as a practising Christian,
which I think personally is far more important and meaningful than a cultural Christian,
and I'm making no assertions about the proposal of emotion,
because I don't know where he stands on that, whether he's a practising Christian or a cultural Christian.
I have to say as a practising Christian, words were used in that speech that I am not prepared to be associated with.
Even if I had come along with the intention to vote for the motion, which I've explained
I hadn't on balance, the words that were used to speak to that motion as a practising
Christian I just could not support.
Thank you.
Councillor Bromwich.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Tom Bromwich - 2:41:51
I think everyone said something in this room that has made sense outside.
I mean, Councillor Murray's point about the words used, I absolutely take.
I wasn't too keen on the use of the word animals.
I know you didn't refer to all of them as animals, but I think that is dehumanising
in my opinion.
In terms of the referring to the police, I come from a family of coppers and it made
incredibly depressed to hear the Met Police called the worst police in the country. I
know you didn't know that, but that's just my perspective from this. And I agree with
Councillor McCann that there needs to be an evidence base from which we can draw our own
conclusions from this. So my fear is that with this motion not having the evidence to
support some of the claims in there.
And it is broadly, I think there are a lot of good things
in the motion and you've done well to craft it.
There are also very good things
in Councillor McCann's motion as well.
But just because I think so many of the points in there
I wasn't able to get on board with,
then I will just have to vote for the amendments
to the motion with an idea of we could maybe revisit it
in the future as a condensed version.
potentially with a much more fine scope.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Councillor Whitehouse.
Yeah, thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:43:23
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 2:43:26
I was disappointed by this motion and disappointed by the proposer's speech, not because we shouldn't
talk about these things, but if we're going to talk about them, we should talk about them
accurately and with a view to supporting residents, not dividing them.
Of course, there were things the Council did not get right during this whole episode.
One of those things was spending so long and so much taxpayers' money pursuing legal action,
which was unsuccessful, and we knew it was likely unsuccessful and was something that
Councillor McIver voted for when planning powers were available.
I think the motion underplays the impact on Brisbane's repping of the protests and demonstrations,
which persisted long after the individuals responsible for the original crime had been arrested and imprisoned.
And it's notable that neither the proposer nor the seconder live in Epping and experience that on the day -to -day basis that residents of Epping did.
There are sort of Trumpian -style sweeping assertions in this motion, which are not the
sort that might do for a stump speech in the States, but really shouldn't be something
that we have in our community here.
I think the amendment is better than the original motion.
We will vote for that because of that, and particularly because of the Zoll section,
which is about supporting the community, which is about moving forward, and about partnership
working.
And we do need to be in residence, public organisations, voluntary sector, and make
sure that we are all doing the best we can for the town and the area that we represent.
Thank you.
Councillor Marquin.
Thank you, Chairman.
Cllr Maria Markham - 2:45:23
I have listened and I can see points on both sides.
But I have to say my son is very close friends with the father of the victim.
And I think it would only be fair to consult with them before voting.
I also would never want to criticise the police as it was a very tough situation for them to be in.
So for both of those reasons I am going to abstain. Thank you.
Councillor Morgan.
Thank you.
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 2:45:55
I did agree with a lot of the motion and we need to be honest about our mistakes.
We need to look at them, highlight them, see where we can go forward from them.
But I think there is too much in the motion.
I would like to see it condensed and like Councillor McKown said, we need a lot of these
points to be evidence based.
We can't just go on the back of it.
And I'm sorry, but being that my great -grandfather was chief of police in the Met, I probably
can't do that either.
Thank you.
Okay, no more questions.
Councillor Whitby, did you want to come back?
Yeah, thank you Chairman.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:46:28
Chairman, I won't say much of what I was going to say tonight because other members have
already said it.
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 2:46:32
But this, the reason I support the amendment and not the motion, is that the motion is
full of falsehoods.
When it talks about the council opening the bell, it wasn't the council. It was the home
office. We didn't have a say on whether the bell was there. The issue of enforcement
was completely a red herring in some ways, but you're right about the evidence, because
that's the most important thing of all this, and you do need to look at the evidence.
I actually took the opportunity to speak to Roger Hurst and get some real detail from
the police about this matter. And it comes down, they policed 40 protest events. There
was 32 arrests. There was 21 criminal charges, 11 convictions, and more than 12 years of
imprisonment that was imposed. So they're the real facts of what happened last year.
And the police faced abuse, they faced numerous insults and abuse, and they had a difficult
job of policing those days.
And it was really difficult.
No one takes away the right to peacefully protest.
That's a fundamental right of law in this country.
But people, in this case, there was a breakdown of law and order at certain events.
It's a fact, and we have to be ready to deal with those facts.
And you're right.
We do need to have a discussion about it at some point.
But you need to have it with the full facts in front of you, not falsehoods
which are contained within this motion. Therefore, I support the amendment.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:48:24
It was a very high -speed question to Ms Beardwell. If the motion as presented in the original
Cllr Will Kauffman - 2:48:34
papers is passed, what could the legal ramifications be on the Council?
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:48:45
I don't know who would answer that.
Sorry.
Sorry, it's you, Tanta.
Barbara Beardwell - 2:48:58
Yeah, I don't think there's any legal ramifications as such, but reputationally, there could be
quite significant ramifications.
That is just a broad view of claims.
The council might be asked where is the evidence behind these claims.
I don't know, but I think that would be my feeling.
We are getting close to the time.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:49:29
Councillor Holly Whitford, did you want to come in as seconder?
Thank you, Chairman.
and I was very happy to second the amendment to this motion this evening.
Cllr Holly Whitbread - 2:49:40
Although I wasn't very happy because I don't feel like it's the right time
to bring up this issue again.
Epping, I've lived in Epping my whole life, and I have to say the last summer
was the most difficult time our community has ever experienced.
If you lived in Epping, there was a fear of walking up
the high street in the evening.
There were fears of intimidation.
I had a long -held position
that I was against the Bell Hotel.
I said it over years, not just when it was
politically convenient.
I made that point over years
and argued it for years
both behind the scenes and in this chamber.
But the way that the protest
escalated
had a deep impact on our town that is still
there and we are just starting
to rebuild.
That is why this evening
is not the time
to throw accusations
around without fact
or evidence, it is not the time to bring up this issue because it is not about the victim
who we should always have the greatest concern and sympathy for. To hear that the victim
and her family were not consulted on this motion, I find it disgraceful. What I am most
uncomfortable with this is the performative type of politics that is just cause to stir
up division again. Before Councillor MacGyver was expelled from the Conservative Party,
before he was expelled from the Conservative Party, I have an email.
Cllr Karen McIvor - 2:51:23
Point of order, Chair. This evening, we have had other people over there ask not to bring
up other councillors. This is continued from the front bench. It's not necessarily to have
personal attacks. We're trying to put an amendment through. Let's all be growing up guys. Okay,
thank you very much.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:51:44
This is not a personal attack. I'm acting on fact of someone who's proposed motion and
Cllr Holly Whitbread - 2:51:47
the point I want to raise is less than two years ago, this very councillor was asking
for asylum integration. And I've got it on an email and I've got the evidence and talking
about the importance of asylum integration. He is a hypocrite.
Point of order, Mr Chairman. I think it's appropriate that grown men are
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 2:52:13
told that you cannot have sex with somebody unless they're over the age of 16. I think
that is right. And I will stand by that principle because maybe if that integration had taken
place, the man in court that said that he didn't realise our country's rules were so
strict would have been informed of the rules of the United Kingdom.
Thank you, Councillor Guyman.
Councillor O 'Neill, did you want to say something?
Thank you, Chairman.
I just want to finish my second look.
Oh, okay.
Can you finish?
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:52:32
And it is performative politics that is fake and inauthentic.
Cllr Holly Whitbread - 2:52:38
It's not about the people of Eppin.
I don't want to undermine some of the great points that have been made by fellow Eppin
members this evening, but as a community, we need to be able to move forward and not
be exploited by those who are seeking to divide us.
And it's fake.
and it makes me very frustrated.
It makes me very frustrated as an Epping resident
who lives in Epping and experience the impact
of those protests and heard the impact of people
on the protests as well.
Yeah, okay.
I find it very frustrating that the feelings
of those in Epping are being exploited and it is wrong
and you should be ashamed of yourself.
You stood in front of this council chamber
and called other councillors p******
You do not care about women.
You do not care about the community of Epping, you care about yourself and the municipal
point of order.
Point of order, Chair.
Point of order, can we take some control, please?
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:53:36
Thank you.
Right, Councillor O 'Neill, you have a chance to speak.
Okay.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Annie May O'Neill - 2:53:45
So I obviously seconded the motion on the regards that Epping residents deserve a formal apology from this current council for being
Is everything okay?
For being dismissed. Chair it's ten o 'clock.
I am speaking. I'm sorry. I'm speaking. It's ten o 'clock. Thank you.
They were dismissed and unfortunately what happened with the Bell Hotel was obviously a disgrace of this council and they an Epping residents
deserve an apology.
However, I believe that this amendment doesn't once say anything about this council apologising
and Councillor McCann, Councillor Holly Whitbread, Councillor Chris Whitbread and even Councillor
Rosner -Cherie all mention that they support the amendment on the regards that they completely
agree with the fact that we need to move on from this horrific event.
I agree too, but they have not once taken any accountability in this amendment for what
they have done and what they have caused to Epping Forest.
So I would like to propose that all of the members that stood up and supported this amendment
are actually formally apologising, and I hope they do, to the residents that were heavily
affected by the Bell Hotel.
So can I confirm that Councillor McCann, Councillor Holywhipbread, Councillor Cripswhipbread,
Councillor Razi -Eshery, and all of them support this amendment, do I actually apologise to
the Epping residents?
Thank you.
Okay.
We now need to...
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:55:10
No, we don't need any member first.
No, he gets...
I'm sorry, I was just called a name by Councillor Lee.
She called me a stupid girl after raising concerns about Epping residents.
Hang on, thank you.
Cllr Annie May O'Neill - 2:55:25
I think we've...
Right.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:55:28
Gary said take the boat quickly.
Sorry?
Gary said take the boat quickly.
Yes, OK. Right. What would you vote? OK, thank you.
Chair, can we take control, please?
Thank you.
Right. OK.
Councillor MacIvor, you have a right to reply on the amendment.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 2:55:58
We've got F off over here. Silly little girl over there.
Isn't it a shame that on such a serious matter,
the chamber just descended into the sort of behaviour
that the public detests the most.
We should all reflect on that.
It's not the first time it's happened.
I appreciate that there is now a different group
in this chamber that represents the views
of the majority of this district.
I'm sorry that that is so politically inconvenient
for some colleagues.
I would like to respond to some of the matters
in the motion.
Firstly, I've been a Councillor not for as long as others
in this chamber, but I've been around long enough to know
that very rarely do I see a motion filled with evidence.
If there was an opportunity to have an evidence bundle attached to it, I would have happily done that.
But I'm very pleased that's been raised. That's feedback I will constructively bring for a future motion.
But if you want some anecdotal feedback on the policing matter,
I don't think 82 -year -old men being thrown on the floor just because they walk in the road,
because they can't walk on a pavement because the hedges were growing over, isn't particularly good policing.
I don't think that having more police officers than protesters is very effective policing.
So that's just some anecdotal examples.
Also, when I mention the feedback to the police, I'm asking us as a council to work with the
police on asking them to independently assess what they would do better, because having
spoken to senior police officers myself, they have admitted that much better things could
have been done.
I proactively reached out to the Chief Constable's Office during the whole incident.
The point about being a practising Christian, well, I don't know whether it's right or wrong
to label somebody as a practising Christian or not, but I'll personally tell you I go
to church every Sunday and it's the best part of my week, my best part of my week to reflect
on the week, to have my relationship with God and to endure community cohesion with
the community that I live in. So I choose to do that and I share conversations with
people in my congregation that will be very supportive of what we're trying to do this
evening. But we're all allowed different opinions. Sometimes it depends on who's got the opinion,
sometimes because in this chamber we get called names.
And then a very important point that was raised by
Councillor Owen, and I, by the way, I do appreciate
that there will be people thinking, well,
I agree with what 80 % of it, you know,
a few lines you don't agree with.
Well, the public expects us in this chamber
to have debate and change things and amend things.
That's what we're here to do.
So I'm quite happy if somebody proposes to remove a line.
I would prefer the substantive motion went ahead
to be completely transparent of my group's position,
our red line is we want an apology.
We think that's the best course of action.
I actually think to be honest,
there should be an apology to all victims of sexual crimes
this evening because of the conduct
of some councillors in this chamber,
allowing a sensible conversation to descend
into what the public hate the most.
And finally, Mr. Chairman,
I just feel the need to respond more holistically.
I'd like to take everyone back to the period
where I pointed out that I labelled people
with snouts in their trough, just to be really clear,
not anybody in this chamber am I referring to,
unless they were a county councillor
who at the time voted to cancel elections
and then give themselves a pay rise.
I consider that to be a pig having its snout in the trough.
And that is referring to greed and obsession
and behaving in a way that is disaccording to the public.
unless you are one of those people for the point of record.
Councillor MacGyver, that's nothing to do with this motion.
You provided me the opportunity to respond to members' comments.
I'm responding to a comment of a member.
And just to reiterate another comment of a member,
another comment of a member, which I would like to respond to,
was in relation to...
Councillor MacGyver, can you respond to the amendment
rather than just all this stuff?
You provided me the opportunity to respond to the...
To the amendment.
Cllr Alan Lion - 2:59:46
So the final point I would like to make, Mr. Chairman,
and then I appreciate the time,
although I don't think the taxpayer
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 2:59:50
would appreciate us clocking the time.
We only have to come here once every six weeks.
The final point I would like to make
is that I absolutely, in my role as a county councillor,
when these hotels were opening all over the country,
when the government
and the local Essex County Council authority
provided me as a ward councillor
with both the Phoenix Hotel on my doorstep
and the Bell Hotel just the other side of the border,
where many of my residents send their children
to the school around the corner.
Now that is why we wanted it closed in the first place.
I was offered the opportunity to support an initiative
where they would sit down with people
that don't understand how this country operates
and explain to them what the laws of the land are.
I support that.
And it's very disappointing, very disappointing
to see members stoop so low
and make political points, scoring personal points
when there is a serious matter at hand.
So I encourage people to support the emotion as it was.
It's disappointing nobody's been able
to take a certain few lines out.
That is what our job is to do.
I don't think the, my group will not be voting for the amendment because it doesn't apologise
unless we can add an amendment to the amendment where we add an apology and then I would be
minded to accept it.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Right.
Can we take the amendment to the vote?
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:01:04
All those in favour?
In favour of the amendment.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:01:27
Gary Woodhall - 3:01:32
I'm a bit confused. I'm quite happy to put my hand up because I'm confused. Was there
an amendment to the amendment?
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 3:01:42
No, we are talking about the written amendment that you have.
OK, Gary.
OK, members, we have a recorded vote.
Gary Woodhall - 3:01:51
We normally only do this at budget time, but hey -***
The vote is on the amendment.
You have all got written amendment forms on your desk, so you are either for the amendment,
against the amendment, or you are abstaining.
I will do it in alphabetical order.
So the first one is Councillor Abbott.
Against.
Councillor Amos.
For the amendment.
Councillor Boulton.
For.
Councillor Baldwin.
For.
Councillor Bassett's online, therefore can't vote.
Councillor Batterley.
Against.
Councillor Bedford.
For.
4.
Councillor Brahe.
4.
Councillor Bromwich.
4.
Councillor Church.
4.
Councillor Barbara Cohen.
4.
Councillor Richard Cohen.
4.
Councillor Cornish.
4.
Councillor Dadd.
4.
Councillor Dawkins.
Against.
Councillor George.
Do you need me to speak to you?
for
4
Councillor Lai
for
4
Councillor Lai
for
4
Councillor Lai
Councillor Lai
for
4
Councillor Lai
4
Abstain.
Councillor McCann.
I'll vote for my amendment.
Councillor McIver.
Against.
Sorry, I should have said Jamie McIver.
Councillor Karen McIver.
Against.
Councillor Meade.
For.
Councillor Lisa Morgan.
Abstain.
for the amendment.
4.
Councillor O 'Neill.
Against.
5.
Councillor Owen.
No.
6.
Councillor Parsons.
4.
Councillor Patel.
4.
Councillor Ponder.
I am sorry.
7.
Councillor Rackham.
No.
for the amendment.
Councillor SRI.
Councillor RISBY.
For the amendment.
For the amendment.
Councillor SHAW.
Against.
Councillor SMALL.
Against.
Councillor SUNGER.
For the amendment.
Councillor WEB.
Against.
Councillor CRIS RITPREAD.
For.
Councillor HOLLY RITPREAD.
For.
Councillor JOHN WHITEMAN.
Right, Chairman, we have 34 votes in favour of the amendment, 11 votes against and three
abstentions. Therefore, the amendment is carried.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:05:57
The amendment now becomes a substantive motion. Are there any amendments to that motion?
Councillor McArthur.
Mr Chairman, I would like to add a line to...
Thank you, members, for the debate.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 3:06:08
I'd like to add a line to propose that we add, under the Council Resolves To,
I'd like to add the line,
publicly apologise for the Council's failings in relation to the handling of the Bell Hotel.
I have a seconder.
Oh, Councillor...
Can we amend the amendment?
Then we can amend the amendment.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:06:33
I am following advice from the monastery.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 3:06:41
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:06:44
How it works is that if you have a motion, members, and an amendment to the motion, the
Barbara Beardwell - 3:06:47
motion in effect displays the amendment, displaces the original motion and becomes a substantive
proposition against which any further amendments can be proposed and seconded. If not, then
the council then needs to vote on the substantive proposition, which is the amendment. It is
how that works in the constitution. Once you have an amendment, you always have at least
two votes.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:07:27
I just want to clarify, but Chairman, once we have reached the votes, it has always been
you do the votes, you don't interrupt the votes to have further discussion, surely?
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 3:07:32
I am taking the verse from the monetary office.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:07:40
Sorry, it is how the constitution works. What you have just voted on is what you want the
Barbara Beardwell - 3:07:45
final vote to be on. It is just the way it works and it is actually quite common, it
is the same in all constitutions I have come across. It seems like a palaver but that is
the way it is set out, that is what we need to do.
Councillor Murray?
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:08:03
I have to be honest and say I don't know exactly what our constitution says but I have been
Cllr Stephen Murray - 3:08:07
to enough union meetings to know that normal practise is if there is a motion and an amendment
is passed, that is the substantive motion, but you don't necessarily have to take the
substantive motion before there's another amendment. If that amendment is then accepted,
you've got a new substantive motion. I'm assuming that's what our constitution says, because
that's what the officers said. That would be normal practise in the trade union branch.
We have got Gary Sowell.
Gary says we can take amendments.
We can take amendments.
Yes. Right.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:08:43
Did somebody...
Councillor O 'Brien, you wanted to speak.
Thank you, Chairman. I have got my coat on already.
Don't blame you.
Cllr Michael Owen - 3:08:54
I have got no problem with apologising if we have done something wrong.
We need to be super clear what we are apologising for.
We can't just make it our failings.
What our failing is.
are our fates. If we're going to be honest, we need to be super clear about what we're
apologising for if we've done something. So no problem apologising. I always apologise
to my wife.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:09:18
Okay, so the amendment that Councillor Guyver's put forward is that he wanted to include an
apology. Is that correct?
Correct. So Mr Chairman, just to respond to Councillor Owen, I think that's why I've been
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 3:09:26
quite broad with in relation to failures, because, of course, this letter of apology
doesn't have to go immediately at 9 o 'clock tomorrow morning.
This is something that could be worked on.
It's the principle that we are prepared to apologise for any failings.
Now, if there is no evidence that there was any failings, then one could argue no apology.
I think we know there are, and therefore it's an opportunity for us to provide
the counsel with an opportunity to work on the apology.
Do you have a seconder for that amendment? Do you have a seconder for that amendment?
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:09:59
Yeah, Councillor O 'Neill. Okay.
Councillor Whitford, do you want you to come in on this?
Chairman, thank you. I just find it a ridiculous amendment. I accept our Constitution
Cllr Chris Whitbread - 3:10:09
isn't perfect. I know Mr. Bilbo has been looking at our Constitution ongoing because there
are flaws in it, and this is a flaw. But how can you make an apology when you don't know
what you are apologising for, you have not looked at any evidence.
Chairman, perhaps what we should do, and if we are being sensible, that the amendment
should be that this is referred to the place committee to look at the whole of what happened
during that period of time and all the evidence space can be done.
Then if there is any real evidence, because I have to say to you tonight's motion was
full of falsehoods.
It was Epping Forest that opened the bell.
No, it wasn't. It was the Home Office.
So, we're going back on the same old stuff.
It's just imaginary stuff that they've made up in this motion.
We need to have a proper debate, and that should be done at the PLACE Committee,
and I would propose that we put an additional recommendation
that it's referred back to the PLACE Committee.
Hang on a minute.
I've got Councillor Morgan that wanted to speak.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:11:15
Yes, thank you.
I do agree that maybe we should look at this,
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 3:11:21
This is about our community, so maybe it should go on community scrutiny rather than place
scrutiny and we should look at whether, as a community, they need an apology and what
it should be for.
Thank you, Chair.
Cllr Karen McIvor - 3:11:40
I have obviously, like all of us, listened tonight and almost every Councillor that has
stood up and said, we have made mistakes but, we have made mistakes but, can the leader
be a leader and lead the council to own the mistakes that you are comfortable that you
have made and just apologise so we can all move on? What is the big deal? Just apologise.
The people of Epping Forest, the people of Epping Forest, everybody tonight has said
there has been some sort of mistake or an excuse me, excuse me, do you know the rules
of the chamber. You are the leader. I'm speaking. Thank you, Councillor McIver. Did you tell
me to shut up? This is the leader. Chair, excuse me, point of order, that is not the
way to behave from a leader. He needs to control himself. It's not fair on you as chair. Disgusting
behaviour from somebody that should be a leader.
I have a question for the Chair.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:12:37
Councillor McCann, are you prepared to accept the amendment?
What amendment am I being asked to accept?
The apology.
Cllr Craig McCann - 3:12:56
No, Mr Chairman.
Chairman, point of order.
Can we take control please?
Okay, we're gonna have a five minute break and take...
I've gotta take advice.

12 Motions

Cllr Alan Lion - 3:13:13
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:13:25
Thank you, Members. Can we all sit down, please? I want to go home. We have Councillor MacIvor's
amendment. We need to vote on that amendment. I am not taking any further questions. We
What Councillor McIvor's amendment is?
Sorry?
I don't know what Councillor McIvor's amendment is.
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 3:14:16
The amendment was to make a formal apology.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:14:21
Can Councillor McIvor confirm the wording of his amendment?
Can we write that down, Gary?
Carry on, Councillor McIvor.
Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Barbara Beardwell - 3:14:32
So for members, this is to be added to the amended motion,
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:14:37
which will now then become a substantive motion.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 3:14:39
And that is that the council resolves to publicly apologise
for the council's failures in relation
to the handling of the Bell Hotel.
This is a broad matter.
The council can then -
That's enough.
We've got the amendment.
Thank you.
So we need a vote on that.
So we need to vote on that amendment.
Oh, okay.
We have a delegation that want a recorded vote.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:15:09
Absolutely fine.
Okay, Gary, can we go forward on that?
Thank you, members.
So we're back on the amendments
Gary Woodhall - 3:15:20
as just outlined by Councillor Jamie McIver.
So you're either for the amendment
just outlined by Councillor Jamie McIver
against the amendment, or you are going to abstain.
Again, we will do it in alphabetical order.
So first up, Councillor Abbott.
For.
For.
For.
For.
For.
For.
Councillor George.
Against.
Councillor Heather.
Against.
Councillor Harold Kaufman.
Against.
Councillor Will Kaufman.
Against.
Councillor Kallihan.
For.
Councillor Lee.
Against.
Councillor Lyon.
Against.
against. Councillor Lucas.
Councillor Malcolm. Abstain.
Councillor McCann. Against.
Councillor Jamie McIvor. For.
Councillor Karen McIvor. For.
Councillor Meade. Against.
Councillor Lisa Morgan. I wasn't actually in the room when you begged
the motion out, so I don't know what it was, but if it's for an apology, I'm allowed
vote. If we make mistakes, we need to apologise, but I wasn't here, so I don't think I can
vote.
The President
Cllr Lisa Morgan - 3:17:36
Councillor Morris.
Councillor Morris.
The President
Councillor Murray.
Councillor Murray.
Add stain.
Gary Woodhall - 3:17:45
The President
Councillor O 'Neill.
Councillor O 'Neill.
For.
The President
Councillor Owen.
Councillor Owen.
The President
Councillor Parsons.
Against.
The President
Councillor Patel.
Councillor SINCELL.
Councillor PONDE.
Councillor RACAM.
Abstain.
Councillor RISVY.
Against.
Councillor SORIEF.
Against.
Councillor SAW.
For.
Councillor SMITH.
For.
Councillor SUNGER.
Against.
Councillor WEB.
For.
Councillor Chris Whitbread.
No.
Councillor Holly Whitbread.
Against.
Councillor Janet Whitehouse.
Against.
Councillor John Whitehouse.
I don't understand why you got to debate the previous amendment, not this one, but I'm
against.
Just vote.
Just vote.
Councillor Wilding Barrett.
For.
Cllr Jon Whitehouse - 3:18:50
Councillor Williamson is not here.
Councillor Whiskin.
Against.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:18:57
So we've got...
Gary Woodhall - 3:19:01
So, Chairman, we have 11 votes in favour of the Second Amendment, 28 against the Second
amendment, there were seven abstentions, therefore that second amendment has lost.
The substantive motion is unaltered.
So the original amendment is a substantive proposition and that's the motion.
Right.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:19:40
Okay, members, so we now have the amended amendment, the amendment, and that is now
the substantive proposition and we need to vote on that substantive proposition.
That is the amendment from Councillor McCann.
Have I taken any questions? No questions.
We are voting on the amendment now as a substantive motion.
Point of order please.
Thank you.
So we have the proposal, a substantive proposal from Councillor McKellan, seconded by Councillor
Holy -Whitbread.
We have to vote on that now.
Can we have a vote on that amended proposition?
All those in favour?
29, Chairman.
All those against?
None, Chairman.
Any abstentions?
16, Chairman.
So the substantive motion has been carried.
Thank you.
Okay.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:21:34
Gary Woodhall - 3:21:37
We will now go on to Item 13.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:21:42
Very quickly, Councillor McIver, do you have a report from Overview and Scrutiny?

13 Overview and Scrutiny Committee

A brief verbal report that we have had lots of items to, I'm being efficient with my words
here.
Cllr Jaymey McIvor - 3:21:53
I think what's very important is members will be aware of the fantastic work of Councillor
Shaw with Qualis.
We will be having further deep dive into both the Council's response and the research that
Councillor Shaw has done.
And I'd like to put on public record my thanks as Chairman of Overview and Scrutiny to all
of the residents of Epping Forest who have written to me in relation to Qualis and the
report and who have assisted my colleague, Councillor Shaw, with his research, thank
you. It's wonderful to have so many residents with such keen eyes on what this Council is
doing and what Qualis is doing. We have got, of course, the Thames Water
matter, which we are all very pleased will be coming to scrutiny. I'd like to thank
members who have been involved in that and particularly the members for Chigwell and
who have obviously their residents have been most affected
and they've been most vocal on the matter.
I'd also like to take this opportunity
to thank my Vice Chairman, Councillor McCann,
who kindly chairs the meeting of the chairs
due to a last minute unavailability of mine.
I'd like to thank the officers who have made an extra effort
to come to Oviun Scrutiny and be there in person
that has made far more effective scrutiny.
And one of the items that is coming up
that I think we're most looking forward to as always
will be the budget setting, including a closed meeting.
I encourage all members to attend that,
particularly as it's a closed meeting,
we can obviously discuss matters at far greater depth.
There of course will then be,
we look forward to the council's budget
and various other items that will be on the agenda.
And I just want to make the message
that I will make to members all the time,
if you're not a member of OVU and Scrutiny,
you are welcome to come along, you're welcome to speak.
The meetings don't quite go as long as this one,
but they certainly go on until the business is done.
Thank you, Councillor.
Councillor Murray, you wanted to add something?
Yes, I just want to make a couple of points.
I wanted to endorse the public involvement as regards to qualities.
Cllr Stephen Murray - 3:23:47
I have had quite a number of questions sent to me as an individual member, and I have
to say I probably have more questions from members of the public on that than any other
issue over the years, so that will be a good meeting.
I say this gently to the Chairman because I don't know whether it falls within his power,
but we do need a consistent representative from ONS to attend Cabinet.
Each Cabinet agenda has a standard item, a report from ONS, and I don't think on the
last three Cabinet meetings that has been properly fulfilled.
And I know it certainly hasn't been properly fulfilled on two occasions because I've had
do it at a moment's notice online because I'm not a member of a cabinet so I tend to
attend online. So we do need to sort that out, Chair, so I do ask the Chairman of ONS
to sort that out. It is normally the Chairman of ONS that attends. I'm not saying it has
to be, but we do need to sort out a proper representation from ONS to report to that
cabinet item, please, Chairman.
Thank you.
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:25:04
I agree with Councillor Murray regarding ONS and the representation.
Cllr Mandy George - 3:25:07
On the Pass D motion for enhanced DBS cheques for elected members, when are we going to
be discussing that?
Next meeting.
If I could just say a word on that.
Thank you, Councillor George, for revisiting my motion.
Cllr Craig McCann - 3:25:36
I am very disappointed that tonight we have not been able to hit motion No. 4.
It will be pushed into the next meeting.
At this point, I would like to say thank you very much to the Strategic Legal Advisor and
to Councillor Owen on behalf of the LRA for their very constructive feedback on the motion.
and we have made changes as a result of that and it has been very useful in testing the
thinking on that. So it would not have been right to try to smuggle it into tonight's
meeting because it is a really, really significant issue. Given its significance around safeguarding,
I am disappointed that it has not been heard today, but I have been assured that it will
be heard in the next meeting. Thank you.
Thank you. Okay, we have a matter of 14 joint arrangements and external organisations. Have
We have a report from anybody?
Cllr Alan Lion - 3:26:21
No reports.
Thank you.

14 Joint Arrangements & External Organisations

Item 15, exclusion of public and press.
There are no items for consideration.

15 Exclusion of Public and Press

Thank you everybody for their attention.
I close the meeting at 22 .11.
Cllr James Abbott
District councillor for Waltham Abbey South and Rural ward
Reform UK
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Cllr Clive Amos
District councillor for Theydon Bois with Passingford ward
Liberal Democrats
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Cllr Raymond Balcombe
District councillor for Rural East ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Roger Baldwin
District councillor for Loughton Forest ward
Residents 4 Loughton
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Barbara Beardwell
Monitoring Officer & Strategic Legal Advisor
Epping Forest District Council
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Cllr Jamie Braha
District councillor for Grange Hill ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Tom Bromwich
District councillor for North Weald Bassett ward
Epping Forest Independents Group
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Cllr Mary Dadd
District councillor for Ongar ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Mandy George
District councillor for Epping West and Rural ward
Liberal Democrats
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Cllr Howard Kauffman
District councillor for Loughton St John's ward
Loughton Residents Association
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Cllr Will Kauffman
District councillor for Loughton Fairmead ward
Loughton Residents Association
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Cllr Paul Kelleher
District councillor for Waltham Abbey North ward
Reform UK
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Cllr Jeane Lea
District councillor for Waltham Abbey North ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Alan Lion
District councillor for Grange Hill ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Jodie Lucas
District councillor for Waltham Abbey West ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Maria Markham
District councillor for Waltham Abbey South and Rural ward
Epping Forest Independents Group
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Cllr Craig McCann
District councillor for Chigwell with Lambourne ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Jaymey McIvor
District councillor for Ongar ward
Reform UK
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Cllr Karen McIvor
District councillor for Rural East ward
Reform UK
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Cllr Louise Mead
District councillor for Loughton Fairmead ward
Residents 4 Loughton
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Cllr Lisa Morgan
District councillor for Grange Hill ward
Epping Forest Independents Group
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Cllr Stephen Murray
District councillor for Loughton Roding ward
Independent
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Cllr Annie May O'Neill
District councillor for Ongar ward
Reform UK
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Cllr Michael Owen
District councillor for Loughton Forest ward
Loughton Residents Association
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Cllr Smruti Patel
District councillor for Buckhurst Hill West ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Chris Pond
District councillor for Loughton St John's ward
Loughton Residents Association
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Cllr Sheree Rackham
District councillor for Loughton Roding ward
Loughton Residents Association
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Cllr Kaz Rizvi
District councillor for Chigwell with Lambourne ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Razia Sharif
District councillor for Epping West and Rural ward
Liberal Democrats
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Cllr Geoff Shaw
District councillor for Theydon Bois with Passingford ward
Reform UK
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Cllr James Small
District councillor for Buckhurst Hill East and Whitebridge ward
Reform UK
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Cllr Darshan Sunger
District councillor for Chigwell with Lambourne ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Chris Whitbread
District councillor for Roydon and Lower Nazeing ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Holly Whitbread
District councillor for Epping West and Rural ward
Conservative Party
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Cllr Jon Whitehouse
District councillor for Epping East ward
Liberal Democrats
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Cllr Natalie Wilding-Barrett
District councillor for Loughton Fairmead ward
Reform UK
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Cllr Ken Williamson
District councillor for Buckhurst Hill West ward
Conservative Party
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Matt Winslow
Planning Director
Epping Forest District Council
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Cllr Graham Wiskin
District councillor for Loughton St John's ward
Loughton Residents Association
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Gary Woodhall
Team Manager - Democratic and Electoral Services
Epping Forest District Council
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